US govt security clearance and "gambling"

[eastbay]

I hold a high level US govt security clearance. In reviewing my poker tracker stats, I realize that to keep my nose clean, I am going to have to report a "gambling loss" on my income tax that is comparable to my annual salary.

I of course will also post gambling wins of that gambling loss plus about 35% - my long term poker ROI. However, I am suddenly nervous about the prospect of some clearance investigator seeing these numbers and flying out of his chair at this obvious "problem gambler" who is "gambling his entire salary" and getting stripped of my clearance and my entire career which I spent decades building and value immensely, both financially and emotionally.

I was just looking for anecdotes from anyone who has held a clearance and has also been a moonlighting poker player. I am really hoping that common sense will prevail here, but in matters of govt beaurocracy that may be optimistic.

I am also considering a "pre-emptive strike" by going to the clearance investigation center to discuss this matter with them before they discover it in my upcoming re-investigation a year from now. I figure if I am the one to make the first volley here, it may be possible to head this off before it becomes a serious problem. They do seem to value you voluntarily putting any potential issues out there, rather than them having to come to you to find things that may be, in their mind, red flags.

So, has anyone been in this spot before? Any experiences of things to do or not to do? What are my chances of having a rational discussion about advantage gambling with these folks? I am, frankly, increasingly concerned about this at the moment. I can see lots of nodding and winking as I try to explain the statistics of my results, while the investigators write things in their notebook like "rationalizes extreme gambling addiction with mathematical double-talk." Sigh.

If you look at the stated criteria for holding clearances as documented, gambling only comes up as a potential factor in financial irresponsibility and financial difficulties. Clearly a person in financial dire straits is a security risk, as they may be tempted to sell secrets. I understand this - it is a rational concern. But what I am concerned about is the appearance of financial irresponsibility associated with apparently very large gambling transactions.

Now I know, you know, we all know that a winning player is basically "recycling" his money with a very low risk. It's like taking the coins out of a +EV slot machine and firing them back in, over and over and over again. But when you look at the numbers, I admit they are terrifying looking, and a non-gambler will likely not really understand any of this.

So, once again, anyone been through this?

eastbay

[Ray Zee]

start by trying to get them all into poker games. once you can get respected as a good player they will be forced to accept it. tell them about how it is easy to make money on the net and such. start using probabilities around the office for different things. get to be known as a gambling wiz. problem solved with respect.

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]
start by trying to get them all into poker games. once you can get respected as a good player they will be forced to accept it. tell them about how it is easy to make money on the net and such. start using probabilities around the office for different things. get to be known as a gambling wiz. problem solved with respect.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately the guys in charge of clearances work in a totally separate place than I do, and there are hundreds of them, and they subcontract most of the investigative work to private detective agencies.

So the chance of me befriending any of the guys involved or making an impression on the respect factor is basically nil.

eastbay

[eastbay]

http://www.dss.mil/nf/adr/gambling/gamT.htm

Process of Becoming a Compulsive Gambler
...
Henry Lesieur, a prominent scholar in the field, has traced the process by which many people make the transition from social gambler to compulsive gambler, and often to criminal. This process is believed to apply to most male compulsive gamblers, especially those who play games of skill, and to about half of female compulsive gamblers. Ref 20 The following is a mixture of quotation and paraphrase from Lesieur's account, together with several points added from other sources.

During the early phase of gambling, there are usually no serious losses. Those who will eventually have a problem fall in love with the excitement and "action" and, at first, may be quite successful. They have fantasies of further success, and of gambling becoming their personal path to wealth and power. Such fantasies are often fed by a big win early in the gambler's career.

"Gamblers who are headed for problems think they are smarter than the average bettor and are bound to win in the long run. "They know that gambling is going to work for them because they, unlike less clever people, really understand how to beat the system. Ref 21 As they become more involved in gambling, they derive an increasing portion of their self-esteem from seeing themselves as smart or lucky. Because of this, two things happen when they do incur the inevitable losses: first, they suffer monetary loss; second, and often more important, they suffer a deflated ego."

Emphasis mine.

This is the kind of stuff people will have been "briefed" on and been told to look out for. Us people who "believe we're smarter" and "must win in the long run", which is what happens before - of course - the inevitable losses.

Groan...

eastbay

[eastbay]

Regarding investigating gamblers...

"If investigation reveals extensive gambling but the credit check shows no financial problems, there are at least six possible explanations:

* Debts may be in a form that does not show up on a credit check, i.e., borrowing on life insurance, stockbroker loans, unpaid hospital bills, or credit provided by casinos, bookies or loan sharks;
* The individual may be financing his or her gambling through embezzlement or other illegal activity;
* The gambler may for a while be luckier than most, as some people actually do hit jackpots.
* If the gambler is playing games of skill, he or she may be more skillful than most or have access to inside information;
* The gambler's financial condition may be so strong that losses are affordable and considered as "entertainment" costs;
* The individual may be too young to have a meaningful credit history.

Investigation should seek to determine which of these explanations applies.

One specialist in this field advises that consistent winning should not necessarily be interpreted as meaning there is no security risk. He recommends being "at least as concerned about those who are winning." This is because doctors who work with compulsive gamblers undergoing treatment find that many of the embezzlers come from the ranks of those who had been big winners. A severely compulsive gambler must periodically increase the amount bet or the riskiness of the bet in order to continue achieving the same level of excitement and psychic satisfaction. When the bad break inevitably does come, those who had been consistent winners fall farther and harder and may be more prone to desperate actions. Ref 23 For a description of how some social gamblers become compulsive gamblers and then turn into criminals, see the process of becoming a compulsive gambler."

Emphasis mine.

Great, so the fact that I am a consistent winner makes me an even bigger risk? wtf...

eastbay

[Punker]

I seem to recall a post from someone here a while back that said they had basically be flatly rejected from their application as a police office because of their gambling. I looked but couldn't find the post...any forum whizzes?

[Sponger15SB]

dude this website is crazy pants, how is this one...

[ QUOTE ]
Have you ever claimed to be winning money gambling when you really weren't?
Did you ever gamble more than you intended to?
Have people criticized your gambling?
Have you ever felt guilty about the way you gamble or what happens when you gamble?
Have you ever hidden betting slips, lottery tickets, gambling money, or other signs of gambling from your spouse, children, or other important people in your life?
Have you ever borrowed from someone and not paid them back as a result of your gambling?
Have you ever lost time from work (or school) due to gambling?
If you borrowed money to gamble or to pay gambling debts, who or where did you borrow from?

[/ QUOTE ]

i said yes to every one except the "not paid them back as a result of your gambling"

am i in denial or does this test just seemed incredibly rigged because it focuses on the stigma that everyone else gives complusive gambling,

its like if your mom told you she hated you watching porno so you hid the porn in your sock drawer you are addicted to watching porn.

[TwoGun]

I think poker's surging popularity will certainly help you out. Granted, I have never been nearly in the situation you are in, but most people I've met (especially men) understand that poker is a game of skill and that many are 'professionals.' Heck, there's a good chance that the people reviewing your security clearance play internet poker!

While this may seem incredibly sexist, it may be worthwhile knowing the type of person that will be reviewing you. If it's a woman, you are perhaps more in trouble because they may not differentiate poker from other gambling (because not as many play poker).

[adios]

I've had a high level clearance which ended about 9 years ago but I didn't have the problem you encounter. The investigators will be interested. Honesty is the best policy in this situation. I'm not certain a pre-emptive move is the best.

[Gator]

Reminds me of one of my favorite poker/gambling quotes: "Gambler's anonymous must be really hard up for members. I just took their 20 question quiz to see if you are a compulsive gambler and they make it way to easy to qualify."