Optimum number of callers to KK,AK

[TheCat]

This is something I posted in the Mutil Table Tournament department but I just can't belive the answers I getting. What do you boys think of this:

NLHE tournament, 30 still in, top 10 pay.
You're short stacked but not desperately so with 6 to 10xBB, you get KK UTG. How many callers do you want here? I think one or two callers is ideal, zero is OK, three is worrying and four or more is bad.
Assume you go all in on the flop whatever lands irrespective of the betting in front.

Do you concur?

Is there an optimum number of callers with same hand in a NLHE cash game or do you want as many as you can get as long as they don't have AA.

Same question for AK. I like to get zero or one callers with AK but not sure if that is best.

This stuff must be covered in poker theory. Although I don't ever recollect reading about it.

[bingledork]

So you already posted this question, got some answers, but rejected them? It sounds like you're fishing for someone to agree with you. I don't.

For AA and KK, you want to get the greatest percentage of your stack into the pot preflop. If you go all-in, and you get 9 callers, GREAT. Normally you don't go all-in because you won't get any callers.

Zero callers is obviously BAD, I don't know why you think this is OK.

The trick is to get as much or your stack as you can in preflop while still getting at least 1 caller. If you raise too little, you'll have a lot of callers with a lot of money to bet, which isn't good for AA or KK. This gives your opponents implied odds to bust you. If you raise too much, everyone folds.

[Dynasty]

I like the answers in the other thread for KK. You're too scared of losing.

[banditbdl]

First of all, with 6-10XBB you should be going all in preflop right away with your KK unless you have very good reason to suspect a table idiot will allow you to reraise all-in preflop by raising behind you. Let's say you have 8XBB and minraise to 2XBB, 25% of your stack, and get called by 4 players. In this case I wouldn't so much be worried about the number of callers as I would be pounding my head against the table for making a ridiculously small raise with the 2nd best hand against a field who I should have noticed is more than willingly to gamble it up and call my early position raises.

When you play the hand correctly the only reason you would ever not want as many callers as possible is if the top 10 being paid is some sort of satellite. If the top 10 all get paid the exact same you want about whatever number of callers will give you enough of a stack to coast into the money if/when you win the hand. If it's a normally structured tourney your ideal situation would be for every player at the table to call provided none of them has AA. Sure, you won't win all that often, but when you do your stack will be enormous and you've quickly put yourself in great position for a big payday.

[TheCat]

You’re correct, I'm fishing around for an answer I like.
I've had nothing but the most excellent advice in 2+2. I have the upmost respect for the folk here.
Call me arrogant but I have the great difficulty believing you want as many callers as possible with a premium hand.
Me and 2+2 will have to agree to differ on this one. I expect I’ll run across this one in the literature somewhere.

[mended]

Like TheCat I too find the answers to this question a bit remarkable. With AA, AK, KK you raise not only to increase the size of the pot, but more importantly to narrow down the field. For every opponent entering this pot, the previous edge to winning the pot decreases to the odds of just another random hand (theorem of poker).

[Nottom]

With KK I'll be happy to take callers from anyone who doesn't have an A (or 4 people who do [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]), with AK I usually am quite happy with the blinds.

[pzhon]

[ QUOTE ]
With AA, AK, KK you raise not only to increase the size of the pot, but more importantly to narrow down the field. For every opponent entering this pot, the previous edge to winning the pot decreases to the odds of just another random hand (theorem of poker).

[/ QUOTE ]
The idea that you should try to narrow the field is a sort of urban legend. Repeating it doesn't make it more true.

The Fundamental Theorem of Poker applies directly to heads-up play, not a multi-way pot, but it would argue that you want as many opponents as possible when you push with AA: Except for another AA, no one would want to call if they knew you had AA, so you should gain when they call.

The difference between surviving this hand or not is obvious, so its importance tends to be overweighted. The difference between doubling up and quadrupling up is less obvious, so its importance tends to be underweighted.

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
For every opponent entering this pot, the previous edge to winning the pot decreases to the odds of just another random hand (theorem of poker).

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, your edge goes down but not by as much as the extra money you earn from the additional callers with a hand like AA or KK.

I also think the situation can be quite different with a bigger stack or as you get closer to the money. With 30 left in a tourney that pays 10 and having one of the shortstacks you really need to get some chips, getting a few callers when you have AA/KK is a good way to put yourself in a position to not just survive but have a legitimate chance to do some damage. On the other hand if you are in a satalite and are the short stack just a few spots away from the bubble (for example you are 12th of 13 and top 10 pay) you want to get chips without a lot of risk so you probably only want 1 caller or maybe 2 depending on the chip gap between you and the player currently in 10th.

[Louie Landale]

Did some hot-cold work with Turbo years ago. All the big hands did BETTER as you increased the number of random opponent's hands. Heads-up AA can win only 1/hand; whereas it wins about 34% of the time against 9 opponents; so twice it loses 1 and once it wins 9 for a net of 7 over 3 hands or wins 2.33/hand; which is a LOT more than the max 1/hand you can win headsup.

But that does NOT mean you prefer 5 opponents for one bet (you don't raise) over 3 opponents for 2 bets (you do raise).

Also, your tournament situation can drastically change all that; other posters have correctly suggested why.

- Louie