BB hand Turn decision.

[Swiss Cheese]

2nd orbit, player in question is unknown so I am treating him as if he has an idea about how to play the game, he is wearing a 2002 WSOP hat and has his chips in neat piles, but he strikes me as a little weak, just a read from the couple hands I have seen him play.

I have 8-2 in BB and there are 6 limpers to me. 7 players in the hand.

Flop is 8-7-2 SB bets out and he is definately weaker as I have played against him before. I just call(first mistake?) 2 other players call. 4 to the turn.

turn is 10 completing the rainbow. SB checks I bet next player raises everyone folds to me, I think and go through the holdings he could have. I muck(mistake 2?).

Thanks for your input.


Swiss Cheese

[Tyler Durden]

[ QUOTE ]
player in question is unknown so I am treating him as if he has an idea about how to play the game,

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is your first mistake. It's better to assume all players are fish until they give you reason to believe otherwise.

Your hand is too vulnerable on the flop to just call. The pot is already decent. You should raise.

[andyfox]

When deciding, in such situations, whether to raise right away on the flop, or wait for the turn, for me an important consideration is the high card on the flop. With this being just 8 high, it's likely the turn card will be an overcard, thus making it more likely the small blind will check the turn. There still might be overriding considerations to just call and wait for the turn, but this is something I take into account.

[mplspoker]

Is this a joke? you have 2 pair.....completely a joke right..... you absolutely can't fold.....

[Diplomatdcm]

I agree i think you need to raise the flop. Then when you bet the turn it does not look like you hand is extreemly strong, it apperas to be an opertunstic bet. So there is a least some chance he is rasing a ten, so you can jsut fold to a raise, it needs to go to show down.
Dave

[Swiss Cheese]

The flop no raise is what made this hand the difficult one to play after the flop because i did not define my hand, or make them define the hands of my opponets. After sitting and playing with this gentleman for the rest of the afternoon I know the laydown was correct, but without a raise on the flop on the hand in question I had no idea where i was at with limited info on the player.

Swiss Cheese

[elysium]

hi swiss
you need to raise the flop swiss, especially if you are planning to fold if raised on the turn. one of the things you must consider in all your decisions before the river, is 'how am i going to play if i bet and get raised on the next round of the hand?'; and then swiss you look left. if you are going to fold on the next round when raised on the next round, those times you have a hand that you will likely bet, then do not call in the current round of the hand. you should raise because the raise in the current round will give a possible fold on the next round more certainty that it is the right move. if you look left and see a couple of bluffers, look right. this should be automatic. ask, 'what if check-raised?'. if you aren't going to fold to the check-raise, then call.

any time you have a hand that excludes the computation of improving as being a strong factor about your continuing on in the hand, and therefore necessarily becomes a pot odds, as opposed to a mathematical type hand, and in so doing also, therefore, necessarily is a hand based on opponent knowledge rather than just cards, unless you have the nuts, you must consider what your action will be on the next round if facing somewhat surprising to very surprising strength. if you are going to fold, even if the possible likely strength on the next round will be shown by a solid to whom you can confidently fold, and even though you may want to dissmiss that as a consideration from your current decision making process because, after all, if that opponent should show strength you can easily fold, nevertheless swiss, you must weigh that factor, along with all the other factors, when deciding on how to proceed in the current round. usually, if you are going to fold, you should tend to raise. you need to be careful here though because raising is not always correct. there are games that become much more passive on the expensive rounds. in these type games, if a solid/ aggressive is going to make a play at you, it will usually be on the flop because then he knows he can cruise through the expensive. his strength up front in this type game can be strategical. but you might have a reasonable hand, if you think that there is some chance that the action will slow down on the next round, possibly allowing you to see the river, sometimes calling, rather than raising the current round is correct, even if you are going to fold on the next round against surprising strength or sudden reversal. in this case, you might think that the next round will get checked down. if there is a bluffer in the game, and you are out of position to make a driveout adjunctifying bet or raise, so that you won't likely raise him nor he you, but there is someone in there who just might, then you will have to tend to call on the next round. now, with the aggressive bluffer outside your reach, you need to start thinking about the turn raise in more tangible form, and earlier. if there is an aggressive in there away from you swiss, and the aggressive will do his worst away because the negative effects of an aggressive intensify with distance away from you, and because the positive effects of your powerful hands intensify, as you're paying attention and notice that distance between you and the aggressive is several opponents or so, and comparitively great, you need to realize that the negative effect that distance away has on your weaker hands, now makes your stronger type hands more powerful, and it makes you consider earlier than you otherwise would have, action that will likely occur later on in the hand. you must never complain when an aggressive receives an adjuctional doubling of his bet or raise, and surprising turn strength suddenly is confronting you. this should be anticipated pre-flop. now, for example, a medium suited connector might always have a fighting chance when you look at it for the first time, now quickly consider the action, and you know what i'm talking about now, and then quickly muck.

the aggressive is away from me. i muck.

the aggressive is near to me. the tricky is away from me. i check-call.

the tricky is near to me. the aggressive is away from me and also away from tricky. i bet.

you would bet the tricky on your left, or raise the tricky on your right. you need to show strength early on to slow down the tricky. when you align and form a conjuction with the tricky opponent and the aggressive, if the tricky is left of the aggressive, as long as you aren't acting first, you can enter in with medium suited, when the tricky is right of the aggressive, you must be between the tricky and aggressive. but any time you are acting first, or the tricky has occasion to bet directly into the aggressive, you need to be very strong pre-flop, even if the tricky bets pre-flop and is only called by the aggressive. the problem there swiss is that even though the tricky might not be getting raised by the aggressive, the tricky might check on the river. you cannot later post saying, 'well, the tricky checked, but i can not fold out this opponent on my left by raising him, and if i could, he may reraise or the UTG checker may reraise.' or, 'gee you know, i checked the river because i thought a bet might fold out him on my right, but not him on my left. and now gee, it's 2 cold to me, and eh, i want to fold but this same thing sorta happened on the turn, and now the pots too big to just fold, but the raising didn't stop on the turn, and whew? do you think i'll have it come back around to me again? 6 is the cap at horseradishes. do you think it'll come back around?'.

you need to think about that on the pre-flop. 'now he bet. i thought he might be bluffing, so i called with my outs and got raised by the opponent sitting right next to me here on my left. well, gertrude and al had a few outs, and with all the action, they called, and oh let me tell you what happened next...'. under these conditions, your JTs is o.k. of course your powerful hands get stronger.

so, consider the likely action at the point of the turn, on the flop. if an aggressive and tricky are in there, tailor your action to restore correct pot odds or get more bets into the pot. be very careful not to get trapped by calling. notice that getting trapped and being in the middle are not one and the same. often, it looks like you won't get trapped because you aren't in the middle, but actually you are safer in the middle, especially when the aggressive is left of the tricky.

in this hand, since you will fold if the SB check-raises, you should raise the flop. if the SB were instead aggressive, you would call the flop, unless there was a tricky involved in the hand, close by. if the tricky is able to bet directly into the aggressive, you would have screened the situation pre-flop, and be powerfully questionless, or would have failed to flop powerfully, and be folding. with an over pair, and the tricky betting directly into the aggressive, or checking directly into the aggressive, you would be attempting to cap, and would only be considering folding if the board over-carded or highly coordinated and your attempt to cap did not slow them down. if the tricky isn't able to bet directly into the aggressive, or check directly into him, you can stand to showdown your overs because you can take the appropriate action. what is that action? that isn't important. you should know what to do. what is important is to consider the next round of betting. look left, if you can't makeout anything, look right. will you fold if check-raised on the turn, but are undecided whether to call or raise? why will you raise? exactly. you will raise the flop because the game doesn't slow down a lot on the turn, so doing things cheaply isn't going to work; and you will raise the flop in this hand because, while you don't know what you'll do if a bet or raise on the turn is made by the opponents on your left, you do know that you will fold if this SB check-raises your made hand that will not likely improve. knowing that you will fold if the SB check-raises means you must give that fold certainty. and that's it. if the SB is aggressive, you call. if there is a tricky in there who can bet into the aggressive, there is no question because you would be very powerfully flopped questionless, or you would be check-folding. in this case, you would be betting to get the most bets into the pot, or calling confidently. if instead of a powerful completed draw you river top pair, you discourage 2 cold to you. if you turn top pair, you encourge 2 cold. if you're in the middle, you bet into the tricky on your left, or raise, and check or call to the aggressive on your left. so obviously, it's better to have the tricky on your left. when acting first and the tricky can bet directly into the aggressive, with top pair, you're better off betting out if the betout is a sudden reversal. so if you turn top pair, you'll know not to show strength. save the sudden reversal strength for the river when acting first. otherwise, if the aggressive is able to bet into the tricky before the tricky acts, then you should see that top pair should be check-raised on the turn, or check-reraised. when the tricky acts before the aggressive, now top pair should be called on the turn, and reversed on the river. should you call 2 cold on the river? not if you check-raised. handling this type situation and the one you find yourself in here, run along the same thinking lines. this is pot odds/ opponent knowledge, made hand scenario. knowing when the tricky and aggressive pose a risk that either can or cannot be molified, finds you looking left and right, and considering the action. here, there is no aggressive or tricky, but you still look left and right, and make contigencies as you think about the next round in the hand. you need to know what to do in a tricky aggressive game, because that tells you what not to do here. you might call if the SB were aggressive because you cannot easily fold to his check-raise on the turn, but you can't call here. this also isn't raise or fold. no where in this thread are there any raise or fold scenarios. pot odds/ opponent knowledge. current action, action on the turn. is the aggressive away from you, and the tricky is also away from you? that's bad for this hand. having the tricky near is bad, having him away is better. having the aggressive near is good. having the aggressive away is worse. but in the worst case position scenarios, if you have a powerful hand, it becomes even stronger. you need only address its vulnerability to board deterioration. if not vulnerable, play to get the most bets into the pot. if vulnerable play fast. do you see why you would play fast against an aggressive, even if you would call his check-raise? but if you flopped a set, you might call him? same true if aggressive betting into tricky. but that with a tricky betting into an aggressive, you would play very fast, although if both away from you no good. and if you flopped a set, tricky into aggressive, now very good. slow to get more bets in.

SB check-raises turn, i fold? now fast. i call, now slow. if you are going to call his check-raise, you don't want to do so when he thinks that you're going to bet. you would rather call when he thinks the bet will come late.

this is very wordy, i know; however, you must think ahead and consider. you must have a clue. you must make a decision right away. if you're going to make an error, it will be on the river, with the tricky betting into the aggressive. or checking into him, when you miss your draw and hit top pair. even if you hit top pair on the turn, you might have gotten reraised, or the aggressive might be betting into the tricky who then raises. there will be mistakes. you might fold winners, or payoff like a slot machine. think ahead anyway.

[Gabe]

If he'll raise only with two pair or better, fold.
If he'll only raise with a straight, call.