A simple hand

[Michael Emery]

I'm helping a friend with his stud game. Last week I was playing with him in a 15-30 mixed rotation home game near me. Of course the hand in question is stud high. After the game I told my friend how I would have played a hand he played during the session. He stuck to the way he played it, what do you think. The hand went as follows.

Eight handed: My friend limps in for $5 w/ J3J due to a King and Queen behind him. Everyone else folds on third. Fourth street He catches an offsuit 9 and bets. The bring in (who is a soild player) calls showing 28 offsuit. The next street the bring in makes open 8's and bets. None of their cards were dead on third. My friend calls, and to the river they went. I'll let others respond before I give my thoughts on the hand.

Mike Emery

[Nick_Foxx]

i think i would've raised on 5th street to see "what was up" (i assume your friend didn't improve on 5th st)... if i get called or re-raised, i know to not expend one more cent in the hand, rather than losing an additional bet calling all the way down

mike

[jon_1van]

Hmm,
What did your friend get on 5th?

I think I'd raise coming in. Just because this is my default play. But I must say that when I play higher than 3/6 where the antes are smaller and the players are better I'm not sure this is the best play. You seem to define your hand a bit. And getting any card that makes your hard actually strong kills your action (any J). So it seems like you put yourself in a "only get action from people who crush you" situation.

If I limped and then I got to 5th like this I would probably consider this "raise or fold" territory.

Things to make me raise ::
- The bring in is likely to overdefend.
- Was my 5th street card a K-8

Things to make me fold ::
- The BI must have a pair OR a high 3 flush to call 4th


I think I'd be equally likely to fold or raise planning on folding to a 3 bet or a 6th bet if I didn't improve. But this would be highly dependant on the opponent and my table image at the time.

[MRBAA]

I'd raise coming in. And i'd do this with hands other than split jacks -- big 3 flushes, pocket pairs J kicker. You want the KQ out. When the good player raises, he's likely got you beat with either two pair or three of a kind. Then when he pairs his 8, you are in trouble. Was that hsi door?

[patrick dicaprio]

why limp? you probably should raise or fold here. if both the K and Q call in addition to the bring in then the J3J hand is worthless plus if one of them has a pair they will raise. if they have nothing then they will fold and you can play heads up vs. the bring in who may fold also. nothing worng withstealing the antes when you have this hand.

on fourth street the bet is more likely to work if he had raised. the bring in knows that this is an auto bet heads up so it neednt represent anything. if he is a solid player then he has to have some decent pair to call a bet here he isnt calling withgarbage. so when he catches the 8 he has to have two pair or better. the opponent likely doesnt have Q's up or better since he would have popped it on third street most likely unless he is really tricky. trips are also unlikely since the 2 is the door card. so you have to put him on a pair of 8's with a three flush at worst and two pair most likely.

Pat

[timmer]

[ QUOTE ]

<font color="blue"> whats the structure ? </font>
Eight handed: My friend limps in for $5 w/ J3J due to a King and Queen behind him. <font color="blue"> A limp here seems reasonable to me, primarily because of the low value of the kicker </font>
.
Everyone else folds on third. <font color="blue"> I take it he is heads up with the bring in </font>
.
Fourth street He catches an offsuit 9 and bets. <font color="blue">this play seems reasonable as well </font>
.
The bring in (who is a soild player) calls showing 28 offsuit.
.
The next street the bring in makes open 8's and bets. <font color="blue"> Likely a mid two pair or a thin bet for value. what did your friend hit on 5th ? I'll Likely call here because: <ul type="square">[*] if he is bluffing I make money[*] if he has two pair Im a small underdog and lose a small portion of a bet[*] If he has a set I save money.[*] If he is a underdog to me he is making a mistake. I call to allow him to continue to make mistakes rather than and force him into making the right play by raising.[*] If I am a small underdog to him I am making a much smaller mistake than if I'd raised with a close but inferiour hand.[*] If I am a big underdog to him I'd be making a huge mistake if Id raised.[*]IF I hit a card on 6th that would make him incorrectly fold[*] If Id raised on 5th with the worst or best hand I an making a small mistake in one case and a big mistake in the other</font>[/list]
None of their cards were dead on third. My friend calls, and to the river they went. I'll let others respond before I give my thoughts on the hand.

Mike Emery

[/ QUOTE ]

[Michael Emery]

On fifth street when the bring in bet into my friend, after calling his fourth street bet, their boards looked as follows:

My Friend (Jc 3d)Js 9h 6s

Soild player (??)2c 8h 8s

Some players pointed out that he might want to raise into the King and Queen behind him on third street coming in. This of course is a good point (I actually think calling or raising is fine here) but it is not why I posted the hand. I mainly wanted to see how many players were willing to call the fifth street bet here when the soild player hits open 8's.

I discussed this hand with one of my other friends, who is a very good player (not the one that played this hand) and he hit the point immediately that I had thought. In my opinion fifth street is a clear fold against a soild player like this one was, in most all cases.

My reasoning goes something like this: In this situation with the soild player calling on fourth, the worst hand I can put him on is possibly a three flush with two high cards in the hole. Something along the lines of (Ac Qc)2c 8h
With this is mind realize when he hits open eights on fifth street and bets, at best my friend is slightly ahead. He could also be slightly behind to a holding like 8's and 2's. The problem (as I pointed out to him later that night) is that he could likely be crushed here also. And thats what makes it a clear fold.

The bring in could be waiting til fifth street to spring the trap with a hand like pocket Aces, you never know. He is also behind any two pair hand lower than Jacks-up.
But the main reason why I think its a fold is due to the possibility of trip 8's. I look at this situation as similar to playing against a paired doorcard. Is this much diffrent? He obviously called my friends bet with something. Trip 8's are very possible when he makes open 8's on fifth street and bets. Like a paired doorcard, your slightly ahead or miles behind here. Not to mention the pot was small, this was a clear fold. Remember my friends hand must compare favorably to the range of hands the bring in could have here. It certainly does not. Yet I see people call all the time in these same risky situations.

Mike Emery

[MRBAA]

I think you're being rather weak tight in your thinking here. Sure, the good player's aggression scares me. But if he really is a "good" player, the only starting hands he's likely to play that would have an 8 would be a three flush (A8)2 or (88)2. The latter is unlikely since two eights have shown. The former, while possible, is not his most likely hand. He may have slowplayed a big pair down, he may have rolled deuces but his most likely hand is two pair. With a K and Q dead, there's a good chance he has TT or lower. Since you didn't raise, he may think you don't have jacks. With $86 in the pot, it's going to cost you another $60 to call here and on 6th, to win $114. And on the river you can fold unimproved or call/bet yourself if checked to if you do catch a jack. Basically, I think jacks up here is good often enough that getting just under 2-1 is a call.

[jon_1van]

Opponent was the bring in. So you can't put him on anything on 3rd.

The fact that he called the 4th street bet suggest some strength. You are right that because he limped he might think our hero has something like 77J. But he called a bet so he either has a pair or a 3 flush. Because he isn't calling with A328rainbow

It is probably only worth tangling here if this is the type of player that will fight too hard for scraps. If this is a guy who will cap heads up in the BB against a button raiser with A3 s00ted because "you aren't gonna push me over".(wrong game I know...but you get the gist)

[PoorLawyer]

If this were an online game I wouldnt put him on much more than an Ace high