i'm a donkey

dark_horse · #1 07-26-2005, 12:53 PM

ever cold-called two bets on the turn with a made hand not slowplaying? i think this is the second time i've ever done that. probably should have bet myself. would have c/r the flop if MP3 bet, but not if UTG+2 did and MP3 called. i played this one pretty badly, huh..

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls $1 (All-In), 1 fold, UTG+2 calls, 2 folds, MP3 calls, 3 folds, Hero checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players, 1 all-in)
Hero checks, UTG+2 bets, MP3 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (3.50 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players, 1 all-in)
Hero checks, UTG+2 bets, MP3 raises, Hero calls, UTG+2 folds.

River: (8.50 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players, 1 all-in)
Hero checks, MP3 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 10.50 BB

chief444 · #2 07-26-2005, 12:59 PM

Why check the flop?

J. Sawyer · #3 07-26-2005, 01:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Why check the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

laying 5-1 is good enough, bet that flop

EDIT - plus you have no evidence someone will bet behind you.

W. Deranged · #4 07-26-2005, 01:04 PM

1. I think your flop line is actually fine. Your hand is so vulnerable on the flop you need to take a chance here and go for the check-raise in order to face players with multiple bets. I don't see much reason to raise for value once the EP player bets and all those players call, because you'll be dodging so many bad turn cards that your equity edge is not likely to be that high and inflating the pot will encourage your opponents to "back into" correct play on the turn due to larger pot size.

2. I think given the way the flop played out donk-betting the turn becomes a very nice option here. Your hand is vulnerable in a few directions, and letting the turn get checked-through would be pretty bad. If you get raised again by the EP player, you may get gutshot and one-pair (4-5 outs) type hands out which will increase your equity. And you get the opportunity to three-bet the turn, which would be pretty nice. A turn check-raise would not be that bad, but letting the turn check-through is really horrible and you may get yourself in tougher spots like the one you did.

As the hand played out, I think you need to three-bet the turn and follow through on your check-raise plan. Getting UTG+2 to fold will probably be good if he has outs to counterfeit or something like that. The 9 seems to be much more likely to have helped your hand than the LP player's, who may well be raising as a semi-bluff on some kind of combo straight/flush draw.

-Will

W. Deranged · #5 07-26-2005, 01:09 PM

I like a check slightly better than a flop bet here simply because many weak overcard hands will call one bet here but not 2 (hands like QJ, Q 10, J 10, etc...) 5-1 are pretty short but if one of the earlier player calls the later players are going to ultimately have very clear odds to call. With a very non-threatening flop your opponents will be calling with so many different hands that I think hero needs to show some extra strength is he has any hope of protecting his hand.

What is hero's line if he leads the flop, gets a bunch of callers without a raise, and an overcard comes on the turn? does it matter if it's a 10? a Q? an A?

A check-raise seems to give hero more control and makes the hand easier to play.

chief444 · #6 07-26-2005, 01:15 PM

Protect his hand? It's a 2BB pot. What's he protecting?

A bunch of callers? It's 3-handed.

W. Deranged · #7 07-26-2005, 01:21 PM

Chief,

You're right. I wasn't paying attention and thought the hand was like 5-handed.

In such a small pot only three-handed betting out is right. In my opinion, if it were five-handed a check-raise is better. 4-handed is the borderline case.

Good catch.

jskills · #8 07-26-2005, 01:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I like a check slightly better than a flop bet here simply because many weak overcard hands will call one bet here but not 2 (hands like QJ, Q 10, J 10, etc...) 5-1 are pretty short but if one of the earlier player calls the later players are going to ultimately have very clear odds to call. With a very non-threatening flop your opponents will be calling with so many different hands that I think hero needs to show some extra strength is he has any hope of protecting his hand.

What is hero's line if he leads the flop, gets a bunch of callers without a raise, and an overcard comes on the turn? does it matter if it's a 10? a Q? an A?

A check-raise seems to give hero more control and makes the hand easier to play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Disagree strongly. You have no reason to believe anyone will bet this flop, so you cannot guarantee you can even make the check raise. And in the case that you did check raise UTG+2 after the other guy called, it accomplishes the opposite affect you're looking for, since they'll be forced to call for one more small bet and now you've got 3 people in a bigger pot, so no one is going away.

Leading the flop makes people playing smaller pocker pairs fold, as well as anyone else the flop completely missed.

As someone else pointed out, there is nothing to "protect" here. The pot is small. You have top pair. You need to bet, otherwise you are giving anyone else with any hand infinite odds to see the turn. With a hand like this, you'd prefer it to end ASAP.

Back to the action: Damn skippy I'm 3-betting the turn and leading the river with top 2 pair.

W. Deranged · #9 07-26-2005, 01:25 PM

Jskills,

Agreed. See my correction above. Three-handed a bet is a must.

So much for my being observant when reading posts...

Nice work.

chief444 · #10 07-26-2005, 01:29 PM

Yeah I just read your other post and figured that. I agree if it were much more multiway checking is an OK option.