PLO8 5 hands i woud be happy fore some advise.

Omaha8Player · #1 08-24-2004, 09:19 AM

First i would yest like to say that i have onely played O8 4h so think about that before telling me how dumb my actions are.
Here are 5 hands i would be happy if you could comment.

HAND NO:1
Party Poker Pot-Limit Omaha/8, $0.50 BB (10 handed)

MP1 ($31.95)
MP2 ($17.25)
Hero ($24.25)
CO ($22)
Button ($30.45)
SB ($24.50)
BB ($49.05)
UTG ($29.38)
UTG+1 ($8.55)
UTG+2 ($52.70)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls $0.50, MP1 folds, MP2 calls $0.50, Hero calls $0.50, CO folds, Button folds, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($2.50) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+2 bets $1, MP2 folds, Hero raises to $5.4, SB folds, BB folds, UTG+2 folds.

Final Pot: $8.90

Maby I shuld yest have called to take one scare card off before my move?

HAND NO:2
Party Poker Pot-Limit Omaha/8, $0.50 BB (9 handed)

SB ($68.19)
Hero ($25)
UTG ($22.80)
UTG+1 ($38)
MP1 ($23.20)
MP2 ($23.25)
MP3 ($247.30)
CO ($10.65)
Button ($40.85)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 calls $0.50, CO folds, Button folds, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: ($1.50) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets $1.5, Hero folds, MP3 folds.

Final Pot: $3

I quess this is really stupid done but now i would like some comments. Is my redraw good for a call now eaven if i could be beaten by AK?

HAND NO:3
Party Poker Pot-Limit Omaha/8, $0.50 BB (10 handed)

CO ($71.94)
Hero ($23)
SB ($27.50)
BB ($36)
UTG ($23.20)
UTG+1 ($23.25)
UTG+2 ($23)
MP1 ($244.80)
MP2 ($10.65)
MP3 ($40.85)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls $0.50, MP1 calls $0.50, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Hero calls $0.50, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($2.50) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 checks, Hero checks.

Turn: ($2.50) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, BB bets $2.4, UTG+2 calls $2.40, MP1 folds, Hero calls $2.40, SB folds.

River: ($9.70) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB bets $9.25, UTG+2 folds, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $18.95

I guess my possition and the one caller makes it correkt to call here what do you think?

HAND NO4
Party Poker Pot-Limit Omaha/8, $0.50 BB (10 handed)

UTG+1 ($14.61)
UTG+2 ($61.75)
Hero ($24.25)
MP2 ($23.25)
MP3 ($36.10)
CO ($24)
Button ($44.40)
SB ($25.42)
BB ($20)
UTG ($54.24)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $0.75.
UTG calls $0.50, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, Hero raises to $2.75, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO (poster) folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls $2.25, UTG calls $2.25.

Flop: ($9.25) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks.

Turn: ($9.25) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets $8.8, BB calls $8.80, UTG folds.

River: ($26.85) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: $26.85

I checked the flop whit two low to take one scarecard off then i made a potsize bet to drive out the lows. Is this good play?

HAND NO5
Party Poker Pot-Limit Omaha/8, $0.50 BB (8 handed)

MP1 ($25)
MP2 ($62.77)
CO ($48.38)
Button ($34.71)
Hero ($24.50)
BB ($50.22)
UTG ($39.45)
UTG+1 ($28.33)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. MP1 posts a blind of $0.50.
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls $0.50, MP1 (poster) checks, MP2 calls $0.50, CO folds, Button calls $0.50, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($3) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6 players)
Hero bets $2.85, BB folds, UTG+1 raises to $11.4, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, Button folds, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $17.25

I dont know how i shuld have played this hand ;( Any comments?

I would be very happy if you could take youre time and look att these hands. Maby the answers are cleare i dont know.

Many thanks F

Nick_Foxx · #2 08-24-2004, 05:23 PM

1. first hand i would've just folded
2. second hand you have a gutshot draw to the stone cold nuts, i'd peel one off for a buck fifty
3. third one you pretty much did what you had to do
4. fourth hand i probably would've taken the lead on the flop given that you have some good draws (nut flush, 2nd nut low)
5. fifth hand there's a very good possibility you are way behind already - i'd just check and fold

Buzz · #3 08-24-2004, 07:14 PM

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Here are 5 hands i would be happy if you could comment.

[/ QUOTE ]

Omaha8 Player - Nick makes it look (relatively) simple. Here's my take.

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HAND NO:1

SB ($24.50)
BB ($49.05)
UTG+2 ($52.70)
MP2 ($17.25)
Hero ($24.25)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with As, Qd, Kh, 7d.
Hero calls $0.50

[/ QUOTE ]

I don’t think you have a very good starting hand. I’d fold.

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Flop: ($2.50) Kd, 8h, Js (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+2 bets $1, MP2 folds, Hero raises to $5.4, SB folds, BB folds, UTG+2 folds.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don’t think flopping top pair constitutes a very good fit with the flop. I’d check/fold.

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Maby I shuld yest have called to take one scare card off before my move?

[/ QUOTE ]

That’s how a Swedish accent would sound. Do you live in Sweden? I hope my choice of words and idioms is not confusing to you. Ask if I write something your don’t understand.

[ QUOTE ]
HAND NO:2
Party Poker Pot-Limit Omaha/8, $0.50 BB (9 handed)

SB ($68.19)
Hero ($25)
MP3 ($247.30)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8c, 9c, 9d, Kh.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 calls $0.50, CO folds, Button folds, SB completes, Hero checks.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don’t think you have a very good starting hand. Be nice to see a free flop, just in case. Your check seems proper.

The only time I see only three players seeing the flop when I have posted the big blind are in late stages of tournaments - and then one of my opponents usually would have raised.

MP3 has the biggest chip stack at the table. I’d guess than MP3 either was very lucky or a good player. When MP3 just called at a late stage in a limit tournament after four folds, I’d guess MP3 had a speculative and probably low starting hand, maybe something like 2345, A357 or A278, and maybe at least single suited.

SB has a decent sized chip stack and may be calling with almost anything, perhaps anticipating no raise from you.

Assuming SB is an aggressive player, note that you will be in the worst possible table position on all subsequent betting rounds (but especially immediately after the flop), with one player ahead of you and one player behind you.

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: ($1.50) Qc, Jh, Tc (3 players)
SB bets $1.5, Hero folds, MP3 folds.

[/ QUOTE ]

SB’s bet represents the nut straight, but could be anything. Going back to what I wrote above, SB could have called the half bet, anticipating no raise from you, and reading MP3 for the same type of hand I think MP3 might have had (see above) - and planning to bet if he/she caught a good piece of the flop, or to possibly steal a flop such as this (all high cards) with a bold bluff.

Thus at this point, you can’t tell whether SB has the nut straight, a non-nut straight, a set, or is bluffing and going for a steal - and you still don’t know what MP3 will do. You are, as noted above, in the worst possible table position.

It’s rather like driving on a fast highway with bald tires - too late to do anything about it when one of your tires blows out. You needed to somehow do something ahead of time to avoid this outcome.

But what to do now? Hard to say. SB could be out-playing you here, using his/her “right of first bluff,” tying to take a pot that could be yours. Fold if you think SB really has the ace high straight. Raise if you think SB is trying to steal one.

As a prevention measure, raise sometimes from the big blind before the flop when you have a player seated directly to your right who limps too often and then comes out swinging too often after a flop with two or three high cards.

[ QUOTE ]
I quess this is really stupid done but now i would like some comments. Is my redraw good for a call now eaven if i could be beaten by AK?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don’t think the non-nut club flush re-draw is good enough for a call.

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HAND NO:3

SB ($27.50)
BB ($36)
UTG+2 ($23)
MP1 ($244.80)
Hero ($23)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Kh, 2d, Ah, 5d.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls $0.50, MP1 calls $0.50, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Hero calls $0.50, SB completes, BB checks.

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Fine. Let’s see the flop.

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Flop: ($2.50) Qd, 4h, 9d (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 checks, Hero checks.

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Not a good flop for you. If you’re going to make a move, you have to do it now.

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Turn: ($2.50) 3s (5 players)
SB checks, BB bets $2.4, UTG+2 calls $2.40, MP1 folds, Hero calls $2.40, SB folds.

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That would be a nice turn in a limit game. On the river:
4 sixes are good for low and a six-high, but non-nut, straight,
2 aces are good for a wheel (nut high, nut low),
1 ace (Ad) is good for a wheel (nut low) and makes a baby flush,
6 deuces and fives are good a wheel (nut low), but a six straight is possible for an opponent,
2 cards, the diamond seven and eight, are good for nut low and possibly might win for high,
6 cards, the other sevens and eights are good for nut low only,
5 remaining diamonds might be worth a one big bet call, and the remaining
18 cards are unplayable.

Wow! Eight distinct groups of cards. Seven distinct groups of outs of varying value. That’s a very complex situation. In a limit game getting quartered is no big deal and with all those outs, many which might scoop, it’s an easy call. But in a pot limit game this would be a difficult position for me.

At any rate you call and then miss on the river.

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I guess my possition and the one caller makes it correkt to call here what do you think?

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You must mean your call after the turn. If so, see above.

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HAND NO4

BB ($20)
UTG ($54.24)
Hero ($24.25)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Ah, 8c, Ac, 4h. CO posts a blind of $0.75.
UTG calls $0.50, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, Hero raises to $2.75, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO (poster) folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls $2.25, UTG calls $2.25.

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Looks like the right play.

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Flop: ($9.25) 6d, 3c, Kc (3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks.

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I’d bet the pot ($9.25). Make them pay to play.

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Turn: ($9.25) Th (3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets $8.8, BB calls $8.80, UTG folds.

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You gave BB a free card on the last round! Now BB might have a set, two pair, a good straight draw, or some combination of these. I like your bet here better than another check, but I think you may be making your move one round too late.

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River: ($26.85) 9h (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

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Hard to say what the right play is here.

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I checked the flop whit two low to take one scarecard off then i made a potsize bet to drive out the lows. Is this good play?

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I think you made your move one round too late. I think the flop check was a mistake.

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HAND NO5

Hero ($24.50)
BB ($50.22)
UTG+1 ($28.33)
MP1 ($25)
MP2 ($62.77)
Button ($34.71)

Preflop: Hero is SB with As 6s, Jc, 5c. MP1 posts a blind of $0.50.
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls $0.50, MP1 (poster) checks, MP2 calls $0.50, CO folds, Button calls $0.50, Hero completes, BB checks.

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Not a very good starting hand, but I think worth a half bet from the small blind. Let’s see the flop.

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Flop: ($3) Ad, Ac, Qd (6 players)

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One reason your starting hand is not very good is because you only have a jack kicker if you catch a pair of aces on the flop.

And there they are - a pair of aces on the flop. Since seven opponents were dealt cards, the probability of the fourth ace (Ah) having been dealt to one of your seven original opponents is 28/45, or 0.622.

But there’s no guarantee an opponent who was dealt the fourth ace is still in the hand. Assuming random cards for the five opponents who saw this flop, the probability one of them has the fourth ace is 20/45 or 0.444. It’s possible one of the two opponents who folded before the flop had the fourth ace. However, it’s more likely neither opponent who folded before the flop did not have the fourth ace.

If someone who is still active does have the ace, does he/she have a king to go with it - or does someone who is still active have a full house or quads already? (very close to even odds).

About three times out of five, I think, one of the five players yet to act behind you will have the ace - and I think an aggressive player holding the ace behind you will raise. If you just check, you should expect a player behind you with the ace to bet the pot about three times out of five. Or someone in late position might bet (bluff or semi-bluff) anyway.

About two times out of five, I think, none of the players yet to act behind you will have the ace. If you just check, someone in late position might bet (bluff or semi-bluff) anyway.

What does it all mean? It’s your turn to act first. At the point when the action is upon you, I think it’s about 3 to 2 that one of your five active opponents has the fourth ace. But the odds are only roughly even that an opponent has a better hand than you.

On the one hand nobody is going to call a pot sized bet from you without the fourth ace or a pair of queens. You don’t particularly want these hands calling (or raising) - but they’re going to call (or raise).

On the other hand, you don’t want anyone to get a free card here.

But what do you do if you bet and get raised? That’s going to happen about three times out of five - and about half of those times, your opponent will be ahead. The other half of the three times out of five you’ll get raised, you will actually be ahead (with your jack kicker).

Yikes! Your hand’s not strong enough to check. But it’s not strong enough to bet either! What a nightmare! I guess Nick would simply fold here. Sounds reasonable. Be interesting to see what the other seasoned pot limit Omaha-8 players would do. I have no idea.

[ QUOTE ]
Hero bets $2.85, BB folds, UTG+1 raises to $11.4, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, Button folds, Hero folds.

I dont know how i shuld have played this hand

[/ QUOTE ]

Me neither. I find no fault in the way you played it.

Buzz

Omaha8Player · #4 08-25-2004, 04:03 PM

Hello Buzz yeast the player I was hoping to review my hands. Thanks fore your time.

Yes I am from Sweden but I don't think my accent is very Swedish. It is yeast plain bad English [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

After I posted hand no4 I read some strategy fore PLO hi only where they described AA Double suited to be played like the JJ would in holdem. Either you want as many opponents in as possible or you want it heads up. The worst scenario is tree players. And tree players is exactly what I have here. How does this subject change in Hi/Lo games?

"You must mean your call after the turn. If so, see above."
No I mean the one caller on the turn makes my implied odds better if I make my hand. Is this all wrong?

HAND NO4
You say you would have bet the pot on the flop but whit two low cards and no chance fore low calling whit only a flush draw is a huge misstate what I have read in the online strategy tips. There I read that chasing lone flushes when two low cards flops is the biggest mistake beginners do. I guess checking the flop to see a hi card on the turn makes it correct to bet to drive the low hands out. And if a low come yeast fold.

What do you say about this?
Best regards Fredrik

Beavis68 · #5 08-25-2004, 05:52 PM

You dont have just a flush draw, you have top pair, and a flush draw, and it was passed to you for free. The low hands can only win half of what is in the pot before you raise - If you raise the pot, they are getting getting negative pot odds to drew to a low they will only make 50% of the time. It is a -EV play if they call, you have position, so use it. Make the lows pay to draw.

Omaha8Player · #6 08-25-2004, 07:08 PM

What I have understood about Pot Limit Omaha8 is that when there is 2 low cards on board you should not continue unless you also have a nut low draw. What about that statement?

Buzz · #7 08-25-2004, 11:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
After I posted hand no4 I read some strategy for PLO hi only where they described AA Double suited to be played like the JJ would in holdem. Either you want as many opponents in as possible or you want it heads up. The worst scenario is three players. And three players is exactly what I have here. How does this subject change in Hi/Lo games?

[/ QUOTE ]

Fredrik - I don't know.

"AA Double suited to be played like the JJ would in holdem" doesn't make sense to me, but maybe it would if taken in context.

Whoever wrote those words must have meant before the flop. Does that mean they'd raise before the flop with jacks in Texas hold 'em - and also raise with double suited aces in Omaha?

I suspect it probably means that AAXX-double suited in Omaha is about the same relative strength as JJ in Texas hold 'em. Maybe so in Omaha-high (though it seems a bit of an over-generalization).

However, I wouldn't lump all double suited aces hands together in Omaha-8. There's a big difference between AA23d and AA9Kd in Omaha-8.

Play them both the same as you'd play JJ in Texas hold 'em?

Whatever.

I like your raise before the flop here.

[ QUOTE ]
I mean the one caller on the turn makes my implied odds better if I make my hand. Is this all wrong?

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I think you have better implied pot odds for your draws when you have more customers. But after this flop there isn't much anyone can have for high except a set or a low straight draw. A bet after the flop might bump everybody out. But if given a free card, everything easily can change - and it did. You either, in my humble opinion, play this fast after the flop or you play it slow after the flop and then continue to play it slow after a turn you don't like much (like the turn you actually got).

I don't think you generally want to check the flop because it's not quite good enough to bet - and then bet the turn when you don't like the turn. That doesn't make good sense to me.

[ QUOTE ]
You say you would have bet the pot on the flop but with two low cards and no chance for low calling with only a flush draw is a huge mistake according to online strategy tips I have read.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't have "only a flush draw." You have the nut flush draw and you also have the 2nd nut low draw - plus you have that pair of aces. You have a lot of ways to win all or part of this pot.

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I guess checking the flop to see a hi card on the turn makes it correct to bet to drive the low hands out.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure what you mean. I think you should bet the flop to try to win the pot. If you get called, you have a very strong drawing hand and a pair of aces for back-up.

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And if a low comes yeast fold.

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I don't know. It's not that simple for me. Maybe it should be, but it isn't.

Just my opinion. My regards to you too.

Buzz

Buzz · #8 08-26-2004, 01:38 AM

[ QUOTE ]
What I have understood about Pot Limit Omaha8 is that when there is 2 low cards on board you should not continue unless you also have a nut low draw. What about that statement?

[/ QUOTE ]

The statement is good advice, in terms of giving general guidelines for play.

But let's suppose you hold
A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], and the flop is
K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. You have the nut flush, a re-draw to a king boat, plus you have the 2nd nut low draw, not to mention the 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Are you going to fold? (Obviously not, I hope).

Buzz