Playing the opponents hand and not yours.

[winky51]

Since I am always reading new books and rereading old books every month I discover new concepts and grow a larger set of balls when I play NL. So now this one started coming into my head and I started experimenting.

Playing the opponents hand. I am starting to do this and I like it. I count my real outs and the board outs if I think my opponent missed, his hand does not fit the board draw, or he has a hand he can fold.

EXAMPLE MP2 raises, I call with 77 on the BUT and the board comes 9s 8s 2c. Lots of hands he can have here and depending on my read, the player, and the turn card a play can be made.

How feasable and useful is this tactic?
I'd like to hear some of yall's experiences.

Dont ask me, I called a raise of 6k the other day with 89s thinking the guy had AK-AJ. I was on the button and had a 71k stack to do this. I hit TP with the 8 and pushed on the guy, he shows AA and I'm kicking myself, still. Stupid, Stupid, Stupid. Feel free to chime in.

Personally, I think this is a major part of the game though, good read or bad read. I always have a hard time putting someone on AA - JJ still. I usually only can "see" it when they limp in and then reraise me. I always try to put a hand to the player. I dont know how you have played without doing this.

[HeroInBlack]

I've recently moved up to the $20+2 level, and it's very effective at that level to represent flushes and such when you don't have squat. Any lower, and they'll call no matter what. And I have no idea about higher, but I'd assume they probably see right through you.

[winky51]

I play live mostly.

LIVE TOURNAMENTS I analyze the following.
The player type
Their position
How fast they took to raise
How did they handle their chips
Their PF raise amount
Their reaction to my call.
Their flop bet, how long they took to bet
Their reaction to my call.
Their turn action

ONLINE TOURNAMENTS I analyze the following.
The player type
Their position
How fast they took to raise
Their PF raise amount
Their flop bet, how long they took to bet
Their turn action

As you can see a lot less info.

[McMelchior]

[ QUOTE ]
I called a raise of 6k the other day with 89s thinking the guy had AK-AJ. I was on the button and had a 71k stack to do this. I hit TP with the 8 and pushed

[/ QUOTE ]Nobody stops you from thinking your opponent has a big Ace, but backing that read - made preflop obviously - with a stack more than 10 times the original bet might be overly cocky.

The idea of calling raises with unlikely hands is a) only to spend a small fraction of your deep stack on it (and I'd say like 8% of your stack is a bit high for 87s, where as I make the call with a small pp most days), and b) to surprice your opponent when you hit the flop hard.

Hitting TP on an 8 high board is not hitting the flop hard. Try for 2 pair, a str8, a flush, a opended str8/flush draw, and then we're talking.

And ... the idea is NOT to push, when you hit ... the idea is to entice your opponent to commit a big part of his stack, and pushing rarely accomplishes that.

But I guess you knew this already.

I liked a very simple play I made in the PStars $5 re-buy Monday:

Sitting in MP with t20k and blinds/antes of t100/t200/t25 I call a min-raise in MP from an EP player with t18k. I hold Ts 8s. Notice I'm investing a mere 2% of my stack in this very marginal hand - it basically have no impact on my chances even if I have to throw it away after the flop.

We take a flop of 8d 5s 2s heads-up. The guy bets t1,000. I consider raising to t3,000 to get him off a strong Ace, but luckily realize how stupid that would be with my excellent draw - if he re-pushes I'll be forced to fold what easily could be the best hand.

I flat call, turn is a charming Qs, and the guy pushes his remaining t16k into the pot. Thank you very much, Sir! I don't think there's any clearer way for him to communicate that he does not have a made flush here.

I call, and he flips Ah As, and fails to hit his 7-outer on the river. Easy money!

Unfortunately opponents are not always that donkastic, but the general idea still holds up - see flops for cheaps with deep stacks, and let your opponent outplay himself.

Best,

McMelchior (Johan)

[MLG]

This was almost a really good post.

[ QUOTE ]
We take a flop of 8d 5s 2s heads-up. The guy bets t1,000. I consider raising to t3,000 to get him off a strong Ace, but luckily realize how stupid that would be with my excellent draw - if he re-pushes I'll be forced to fold what easily could be the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why in the world would you ever fold if he repushed?

thinking the same thing.

[ QUOTE ]

Playing the opponents hand. I am starting to do this and I like it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Heres an exercise I really liked. Play a small buyin tourney at a home game, or a small NL cash game. Except instead of paying attention to your cards, every pot you play focus on your opponent's hand, and not your own. Your not trying to make hands, win by semibluffing. Youre just playing the strength of your opponents hand. (You should be doing this all the time anyway, but this time, your doing it exclusively, instead of factoring in your cards).

Try to get through as much of the tourney/cash game without showing down a hand, as much of the time you will not have a hand to show down. Pick certain situations and represent certain hands, but only represent them against people who will understand what your representing. I did this and got amazing results. Certain players will not fool around with an A on board if they dont have at least AJ in their hand. Certain players are weak when the board hits a flush card. Dont go crazy, but seek out situations and opponents where you can win sizable pot without ever looking at your cards.
EX. Tight opponent raises in MP. Most people would respect this raise, figuring him for some decent PP or AK, AQ, AJ, KQ. Well, follow him in, in position, with any two. Then hell naturally lead out at the flop, but see how he does it, look if hes comfortable with his bet, or if its an "information" bet. Then adjust your play accordingly. Maybe take it away on the flop, maybe call and let him check on the turn. My experience is people let you know when they have big hands. Just try it for one tourney.

[McMelchior]

[ QUOTE ]
Why in the world would you ever fold if he repushed?

[/ QUOTE ]
Ahem .... the same occurred to me in the subway going home from work (after posting the article).

Hey, if I was in his place and was looking down on Ks Qs or something, I'd be tempted to push to a flop raise. But I guess that's far from justification for folding with the pot offering 3:2 ...

I'm still learning ... to remember to think, that alone is a handful!

Best,

McMelchior (Johan)

[winky51]

I think I will thanks.