QQ flop decision

[mike l.]

i have QQ on the button in a good 20-40 game. a semi-reasonable player raises up front, 3 cold callers, i 3 bet, loose aggressive rich stoned guy caps it in the sb. bb calls, we lose one of the initial cold callers, early raiser goes all in. 6 of us, one all in.

flop is J54 two diamonds. sb bets, 3 players call. what's my play and why?

[Clarkmeister]

Do you have the Queen of Diamonds?

Call with the intention of jacking any non A, K turn card. Maybe jack the turn on a flush card depending on the action.

[mike l.]

[jdsmoooth]

Hello,

You Raise.
Why? You have the best hand. You don't just call. That's pretty weak. Any number of players at this point will have to draw to beat you. Make them pay. Someone probably has the J here. Someone is more than likely on a flush draw. And someone probably has over cards, probably the early raiser. Maybe AK. Make them all pay. For numerous reasons. Predominately because these players need to understand there are no free rides when you have a legitimate hand. Secondly you fired the first bullet and got a great flop, now if you can't raise on that flop, what can you raise with? Thirdly someone may fold. And that's a great reason. Even if they call and a rag flops on the turn they will know that when the betting comes to you that you are going to raise again. This should definitely scare away the river rats. To me raise is the only option.

[elysium]

hi mike
calling here is like giving a free-card. you must raise and hope the SB reraises to get heads up. but this is what you will thread back:

"i must call so that i can get in a check-raise after the the SB drives the bets around to me on the turn."

the reason i would raise is because the pot is big enough to try to take down now. i want that SB to reraise and drive the MP's out. i will say this though; i may get a chance to play s. cal sometime soon hopefully. my strategy could then change a little.

i've noticed that we never agree on what to each of us seems like the obvious way to play a particular hand. also, i'm never quite ready for how you will answer. mostly, how you play it seems to me over-aggressive until the show-down and then i say, "oh, that's why." (OTW). whenever i say OTW, i usually am indicating that i learned something new. the reason i occasionally abbreviate is to save a little screen space.

[AJo Go All In]

mike l. is a talented player i'm sure, but i doubt even he could pull off a check-raise from the button.

i assume the answer is to call and raise the turn, but i would raise here every time. i would think about hpfap, and decide i should just call, and as i'm getting ready to call, i realize that i've already raised.

[SpaceAce]

Well, I don't know if $20/$40 plays differently than $10/$20 (I've never played $20/$40) but in my mind, this is a raise 100% of the time. This is a reraise 99.9% of the time. No way, no how am I letting anyone see another card for less than the maximum I can charge them unless I am absolutely certain someone has AA, KK or JJ (I am never certain enough of this to check or call with my Queens but I figured I should mention the possibility).

SpaceAce

[mikelow]

Call with the intention of raising the turn if a diamond doesn't come.

[andyfox]

Fold? No, probably not.

I raise hoping the small, loose, aggresssive, rich, stoned blind raises. If not maybe he'll call, they'll all check to you on the turn, you can bet and maybe he'll check/raise then.
I'm trying to elimate as many as possible here.

[mike l.]

so andy fox says raise and clark and mike low say call to raise the turn. this time i called and raised the turn when the 5 paired. turn action: sb bet again, two callers, i raise, all call. river pairs the 4, checked to me, sb folds to my bet, bb crying calls. i win. results not important. figuring out the definitive correct way to play the flop/turn in this particular instance, THAT! THAT is the QUEST young gents!!

so which is it? ulysses? coilean? mason? sklansky?

the way i saw it: i dont want to raise the flop and see them all call and then have it checked to me on the turn. i want whatever theyre calling with (and it can be some pretty greasy illegitimate little two card holdings) to pay dearly on the turn to see the river card. similarly: i dont want to raise the flop, have it reraised, have everyone call anyways (pretty likely given the field and the size of the pot), have me cap it (or not) and have them all get great odds to draw to whatever pile of doo theyre grabbing at my pot with. then have some spankass A or something fall on the turn and destroy my hand and who's crying now, mike l. that's whoo. forget it. so i called the flop and raised the turn when what looked like a safe card fell.