SB completion leads to trouble in the pp 15/30

Bogatog · #1 08-07-2004, 06:36 AM

Well, after my last couple posts from the 15/30 on party it appears that I needed to ratchet up my aggression. Here is a hand where I attempted to be more aggressive, perhaps overly much.

On a sidenote only marginally related to this hand, I have decided that I'm not ready for this game yet. I just don't think I'm aggresive enough, can't tell when to let losers go as well as I should and am not quite comfortable with the size of my bankroll for this seemingly very volatile game.

Edited for reads: No real reads on the players involved in this hand. They seem fairly reasonable for the most part but a maniac at the table seems to have everyone a bit raise happy.

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, CO folds, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, MP1 bets, MP3 calls, Button folds, Hero raises, BB folds, MP1 calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets, MP3 raises, Hero 3-bets, MP1 calls, MP3 caps, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

River: (17.50 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, MP1 checks, MP3 bets, Hero calls, MP1 folds.

Final Pot: 19.50 BB

Limit Soldier · #2 08-07-2004, 07:03 AM

I'm new to this forum, but not to poker, I play 15/30 and 10/20 SH on party and am familiar with the games.

In this situation I like a cold call on the turn because it's unlikely that MP1 will fold, so that will earn you the extra bet that you wouldn't get if he did fold for 3 bets. My reasoning behind the cold call also allows for you to save money if a hurtful card comes down on the river, that being a queen a club and a ten (not as much emphasis on the ten).

On the river if a card came down that you were satisfied with, you would bet out and call one raise unless you had very specific information on the opponent raising you.

The way you played it I think a call on the river could be justified, as it's a decent pot and you only have to win it once in a while to turn a profit.

TwoNiner · #3 08-07-2004, 03:20 PM

Two Pair that aren't top two out of the blinds are pretty tough. With the ten hitting the board on the turn I think I would have gone into call down mode after it was raised into me. KQ, K10, AJ already have you beaten badly AK, AQ the other turn raising hands I suspect would raise preflop especially at a raise happy table. You can't re-raise here.

Here's a general question related to this hand. When you have top and bottom pair out of the blinds who likes to bet the flop into a large field hoping for a raise. Then depending the flop action check the turn hoping to get in a check raise yourself? Of course the 10 here was a pretty bad card, but generally I kind of like the strategy to build a nice pot early but keep it from going bet call.. call.. call.. call
bet.. call.. call. call. lose to gutshot or higher two pair on river.

Of course if you lose a bunch of the field on the flop you might have to change gameplans.

Nightwish · #4 08-07-2004, 03:54 PM

I don't like this double check-raise thing, especially when my hand is so vulnerable. I would bet the flop with the intention of 3-betting if anyone raises. I would then bet the turn. Trust me, people will come along, and you'll win a big pot.

In your case, I think 3-betting the turn is a little too much given what you have.

Analyst · #5 08-07-2004, 03:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Two Pair that aren't top two out of the blinds are pretty tough. With the ten hitting the board on the turn I think I would have gone into call down mode after it was raised into me. KQ, K10, AJ already have you beaten badly AK, AQ the other turn raising hands I suspect would raise preflop especially at a raise happy table. You can't re-raise here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Though I'm not familiar with the Party games, I'd have a really, really hard putting MP3 on KQ or AJ - don't you think that they would have raised PF? One limper ahead of them, they're in CO-1 - seems like a sure raise with any of the hands you list with the exception of KT. Heck, even KT might very well have raised PF given the description of the game.

Given the action, it's very possible that MP3 has QT for a turned two pair. J9s is also possible, though, but I'd seriously consider raising the river and calling a 3-bet.

TwoNiner · #6 08-07-2004, 04:51 PM

To Nighthawk: Yeah, I meant to add that you would follow up with a re-raise if raised on the flop.. just go for the check raise if only called through in several spots.

To Analyst: Pretty good point on MP3 likely raising with kq or aj, k10 not so much but not everyone is that aggressive after 3rd to act calls. Me and you would be but not everyone. I'm still very comfortable in saying that I'm behind MP3 over half the time so I rather not gain one more bet from him when I am ahead and lose two more to him when I'm behind.

Also, if you were very comfortable putting him on a lesser hand why raise the river and not the turn charging the other player who is likely drawing?

steveyz · #7 08-07-2004, 09:32 PM

44 is also possible.

Raising this river, IMHO, would be reckless and significantly -EV. After a capped turn, top & bottom pair will rarely be good unless your opponent is extremely over aggressive. Without a read, I'd slow down on the turn.

pistol78 · #8 08-07-2004, 10:27 PM

I have been thinking about this hand becasue i find myslef often in the same situation with bottom 2 pair. The responses have been pretty interesting.
The thing that i dont like about the way you played this hand is the fact the you checked the turn going for a checkraise. What where you going to accomplish with that?
Only 2 scenarios would come up on the turn
1. A card that does not help your opponents so you check they check.
or
2. A card that does and they bet.
Sure a case can be made that you checking might have them betting some weaker hands but with a board of Q4KT I cant be that confident with K4.
Another thing I dont like is that MP1 bets, MP3 raises and you cap. I think that your read on MP3 has to be almost flawless for rasing (or even calling) for this play to be profitable, I think you have MP1 beat but not MP3.
IMO I think you should have bet the turn and seen what developed form there.

Analyst · #9 08-07-2004, 10:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
44 is also possible.

Raising this river, IMHO, would be reckless and significantly -EV. After a capped turn, top & bottom pair will rarely be good unless your opponent is extremely over aggressive. Without a read, I'd slow down on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I had somewhat discounted 44 as there's only one way to make that (though one does not equal zero!) vs. four J9 (though only one J9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]) and nine QT. However, your point is well taken, and I'd probably just call the river myself.

One of my major leaks is overplaying very good but vulnerable hands, such as this. It's cost me more than a little on a couple of recent, painful, occasions.

Bogatog · #10 08-08-2004, 05:10 AM

Well, as all of you say I was behind the Mp3. He had AJ for the straight.

As soon as I made the play on the turn I knew it was bad. This is part of the reason I'm taking a break from this game. I just seem to have bad timing right now. Need more experience I suppose.

As to the person who suggested raising on the river, I went overboard on the aggression in this hand and I think a river raise would be reckless.

I also agree that the better play would have been to bet out the turn and call down after the raise. Makes a lot more sense. I basically overadjusted for not being aggressive enough in past hands and it killed me here.

Thanks for all the responses.