Middle pair

TheWorstPlayer · #1 06-13-2005, 07:36 PM

Standard? No read on SB but MP2 is the worst player in the world. He/she has already busted out twice and has made plays such as calling down a preflop 3 better with K7o unimproved after calling 3 cold with it preflop.

Ultimate Bet 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
3 folds, Hero calls, MP2 calls, 2 folds, SB (poster) checks.

Flop: (3 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, MP2 calls, SB calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, MP2 calls, SB calls.

River: (7.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets

istewart · #2 06-13-2005, 07:40 PM

I'd raise preflop. Where is the BB?

TheWorstPlayer · #3 06-13-2005, 07:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'd raise preflop. Where is the BB?

[/ QUOTE ]
I think the BB just left so there was no BB? Does that make sense? Or else the converter screwed up. Not sure. And you are really raising this preflop with no limpers and lots of loose guys behind you? If so, could you explain the rationale?

Fantam · #4 06-13-2005, 08:02 PM

When SB calls your flop raise, I suspect that he is more likely to be on a flush or straight draw, than having top pair.

And when he checks the turn, when another A appears, that confirms my previous thoughts.

I very much doubt that SB has anything when he checks the river, and I fully expect that you have the best hand.

That is why I am wondering why you stopped your hand history here? I think your play made sense and seemed to be correct so far.

If MP2 beat you with some strange holding, thats just poker, and you cant predict bad beats from players with random cards.

Buckmulligan · #5 06-13-2005, 08:04 PM

I raise this preflop first of all. Second of all, I'm not sure about the flop raise; it's tough. I also wouldn't ever value bet the river with just one ace on board, as someone could be taking a passive line with a weaker ace, but after not being checkraised on the turn, I think our pair is best. Still though, I don't think I bet that river. Villain probably was on a draw , and he's not paying you with a worse hand. It's close though.

Buckmulligan · #6 06-13-2005, 08:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
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I'd raise preflop. Where is the BB?

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I think the BB just left so there was no BB? Does that make sense? Or else the converter screwed up. Not sure. And you are really raising this preflop with no limpers and lots of loose guys behind you? If so, could you explain the rationale?

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Qjs is much stronger than people give it credit for in these low limit games. On one hand, it derives strength from the fact that it plays well in large pots, and at a nice table with a lot of cold callers, i'll sometimes raise Qjs preflop from UTG. Also, it's a hand that is already pretty good heads up, and becomes even stronger with the added fold equity that factors in on missed flops when we choose to raise it preflop.
Folding this hand preflop is a bad idea. Limping is also bad in this position because we don't want to end up heads up with a later position limper that won't fold to the strength we exhibit when we both miss the flop.

TheWorstPlayer · #7 06-13-2005, 08:10 PM

I'm sure the preflop aspect is quite boring, but since you guys are saying it's standard to raise this preflop can you just explain a little more about why this is a good idea? Do you think I have an equity edge over the random hands that are going to come along behind me? Won't it be hard to play out of position? When are you following through on a completely whiffed flop? I feel like 90% of hands are going to showdown on this table, so I might as well see a cheap flop unless I have a clear equity advantage (say, with a big ace or a big pocket pair.) Is that incorrect?

TheWorstPlayer · #8 06-13-2005, 08:11 PM

OK, we cross-posted. Your post helps, thanks. Anyone else who wants to chime in is more than welcome, of course. Thanks.

istewart · #9 06-13-2005, 08:16 PM

A few reasons, IMHO:

1) Chance still exists that you buy the button, and/or steal the blinds. If you don't, flop action will sometimes go bet-fold.

2) It's 8-handed, you're in MP1, so you're essentially in MP3 with QJs, which is in autoraise territory. The presence of the calling station behind you doesn't make it fun to play on the flop, but your hand is tons better than his.

3) Open-limping here decreases potential flop fold equity, IMHO, and sets yourself up for a potential isolation raise.

Fantam · #10 06-13-2005, 08:18 PM

You dont have to raise first in the pot middle position with QJ(s).

This hand plays well in a multi-way pot. So unless you think that your raise is likely to drive most, if not all of the other players out of the pot, you are fine to just limp in.

After all if you end up playing this hand heads up against someone with say Ax or Kx, you are probably the underdog to win.