Aces up facing raise on river

pokernicus · #1 10-18-2005, 03:38 AM

My read is that villain is semi-loose. He tends to raise with a real hand, and just calls otherwise. What are the thoughts on how to play the river -- especially facing the raise. Do I three-bet, call, or fold?

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 3 folds, Hero calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls, 1 fold, BB checks.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button folds, BB folds, UTG folds.

Turn: (4.75 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, MP3 calls, CO calls.

River: (7.75 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, MP3 raises, CO folds, Hero??

Final Pot: 11.75 BB

milesdyson · #2 10-18-2005, 03:40 AM

3-bet and call a cap. he has K5 or K8 (K2 even?) a lot more often than A8/AK/AA/KK/55/22/88/34.

#3 10-18-2005, 04:10 AM

What are you afraid of here? He would have raised KK preflop, and given you a lot more action on earlier streets too, so KK is not a likely hand. Same goes for AK.

He probably spiked a lower two pair than yours.
I'd re-raise that river I think, or atleast call it.

I guess he could have slowplayed 88 too but that would be stupid play.

#4 10-18-2005, 05:17 AM

Grunching...

My instinct says 3-bet. if he caps call. I estimating him at KK or a lower two pair. If he has AK oh well - but I think he would have reraised with that on the flop.

Shillx · #5 10-18-2005, 05:27 AM

Well it is too bad that you just called here. You lost .9 BB or whatever by not reraising.

Brad

TomBrooks · #6 10-18-2005, 02:55 PM

Three bet is good unless MP is one of those guys that slowplays sets or TPTK and limps AK.

Since you feel he raises with a real hand, three bet.

DCWildcat · #7 10-18-2005, 03:00 PM

Definately 3-bet. Most everything you have beat would have already raised, and there are a lot of kings up-ish things he could have improved to here.

pokernicus · #8 10-18-2005, 03:12 PM

Thanks for the replies.

You were all definitely correct to 3-bet this -- I missed out on a good value raise opportunity. I didn't realize it was that obvious. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I called and Villain showed K8 for a smaller two pair.

Most of my previous play has been in NLHE cash games, so I was biased by a line that I often see there.

Specifically, in NLHE when someone smooth calls a flop and turn bet, then suddenly raises on the river, they usually have a very strong hand (e.g., at least a set). Of course in NLHE, the river raise is going to be bigger than one bet, so more money can be extracted from playing this way. However, I should have thought better of it since people tend not to slow-play a set in this way in a multi-way pot.

I'm starting to see that this line has a much different interpretation in microlimits limit hold'em. I think any hand I was afraid of would have most likely raised this by the turn. Therefore, I should have been alerted to the fact that the river K helped his hand and which would make K8, K5, or even K2 more likely (as AK and KK would likely have raised pre-flop).

On a separate note, I have noticed that many people limp w/ AK pre-flop. I think that this generally a bad idea -- I ususally raise/re-raise/cap pre-flop with AK. Has anyone else noticed this?

SlantNGo · #9 10-18-2005, 03:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
3-bet and call a cap. he has K5 or K8 (K2 even?) a lot more often than A8/AK/AA/KK/55/22/88/34.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, I just call this... maybe me 1.9 river agg. over 10k hands is actually telling me something useful. I guess I have to push more edges on the river.

milesdyson · #10 10-18-2005, 04:07 PM

unless the guy slowplayed AK/A8 or a set the whole way, we have the best hand.

the slowplay usually lasts until the turn. don't get me wrong, some players LOVE to string it out until the end, but most don't. so when you get raised on the river, it's mostly because the river card improved their hand. and in this hand, the only hands that the K improved to beat ours are KK/AK, both of which get raised preflop by almost every player.

3-betting this shouldn't be hard, and while i wouldn't say it's a 0.9 BB mistake (as shill said earlier), it's up there.