Pocket JJ

[mojobluesman]

No good individual reads yet, but the table is playing relatively loose and passive.

Pacific Poker 1.00/2.00 Hold'em (8 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP+1 with J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].

UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP calls, Hero raises, CO folds, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP calls.

Flop: (10.5 SB) Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img](5 players)
BB bets, UTG+1 folds, MP calls, Hero?

This is a pretty common situation -- when one overcard to your pocket pair shows up.

Based on the fact that pot size is medium, I like to call here instead of giving up (Compare to KK facing an A on the flop -- do you give up?).

Opener could have Qx, Tx, QT, two clubs, straight draw, maybe T6, possibly 66,TT (though bad players may slowplay a set) or ace-rag. Without a read, you can't be sure the villain has a hand. See what develops on the turn...it might gets checked thru and you can see a cheap showdown.

What's the turn and river?

Raise or fold, I think. Your hand is relatively strong. The pot is fairly large. You may be against only TT and/or flush draws, giving you an equity edge. I fold to a cap here. I bet/fold the turn/river.

[GTSamIAm]

I could think of arguments for every option. But your standard line is fold. Raise if BB is very agressive, probably pretty loose, and MP is loose and passive. Call if BB is moderately aggressive and predictable and MP is loose and passive. You're waiting for a safe turn and/or a turn unbet by BB or MP.

[mojobluesman]

The way I looked at it was that there were 4 players against me. That made someone having the Q at least 50-50 - probably higher. When the first player lead out after the flop and the second called, I had to figure the probability of a Q being against me to be even higher. If someone did have a Q that gave me 2 J outs, and a mediocre backdoor.

[GTSamIAm]

Only use odds to estimate what people could have if people have not yet acted. If they have acted, you have to use their action to define their hand.

[mojobluesman]

Exactly.. That's what I did, but before anyone even acted I knew I was in trouble with that many players out against me.

Tough situation. With no reads, four other somewhat loose-passive players in the pot, and an overcard to your pocket pair, you might have to dump this on the flop. You're given 12.5:1 odds, which might sound appealing at first for your BDSD and Jacks, but I would discount it slightly for a couple reasons:

1) Hitting the jack could give 98 a straight. And if the jack is a club, it could give someone a flush.

2) Your runner-runner straight draw could end up splitting the pot, or putting a flush on board.

With 12.5:1 odds in this situation, I'd either raise the flop in hope of a free card, or fold. I'm not sure what the better play would be in this situation, but knowing me, I'd raise since I'm stubborn like that.

[sean c]

I think there are way to many draws out to be folding this flop for one small bet. I'm calling here. Way too many players are betting a strong draw on this flop. Granted you have to dodge about 2/3 of the deck so it's rare that you will have the best hand at the end but I'm at least peeling here.

[sean c]

I think calling here is better than folding but that raising is the worst possible option. The only possible reason to raise this flop IMO would be to gain equity by folding the last two players left to act if they possibly have any sort of a weak draw but i can't imagine it making worth putting two bets in on the flop. There are so many cards that will hit on the turn or river that make me want to fold my hand. I can't see any reason to want a free card on the turn. If a brick does fall on the turn and i do have the best hand my equity increases a bunch. I just can't come up with a good reason to raise here.