Correct Flop raise?

#1 12-07-2005, 09:57 PM

No reads on any of the players involved in the pot,
Pre-flop call may not of been right but this is one of my "pet hands" so it was hard to lay it down from the BB.

Is it correct two 3-bet the flop here? as I've got the nut flush draw + BDSD, I have got overcards here but I'm not sure if I want to hit them, as I'm thinking MP2 is kicking back with AK.

On the turn I now assume UTG is on a set, therefore I just call, as I now believe I have 8 outs (I'm assuming the 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] will give UTG+2 a boat)

If pumping the draw on the flop is the correct play here does any one lead out for an extra bet on the turn UI when holding the nut draw? or do you wait to see if you hit your hand before going nuts?

Also if the turn was a (non-heart) K or Q should I bet/raise here?

Paradise Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
2 folds, UTG+2 raises, 1 fold, MP2 3-bets, 3 folds, SB calls, Hero calls, UTG+2 calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG+2 raises, MP2 calls, SB calls, Hero 3-bets, UTG+2 caps, MP2 calls, SB calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (14 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, Hero? (lead or check/call)

Thanks in advance,
Gib

Eeegah · #2 12-07-2005, 10:02 PM

Call. Your J outs probably aren't good, your A outs are iffy and you couldn't raise for value anyway.

Augster · #3 12-07-2005, 11:32 PM

I think the call pre-flop might be correct when the SB calls ahead of you. Even if it gets capped 4 ways you are paying 3 BB's for a pot of 16BB's. Over 5:1 to see a flop. If it's a mistake with AJs and that many in, I don't think it's that large of one.

On the flop, I'm check/raising any. I would hate to have UTG+2 raise and have everyone fold. It didn't work that way, and as long as there is 4 players involved, I'm definitely 3-betting the way you played it and hoping for a cap with everyone in.

I just check the turn. Without the [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] coming, we are still WB with only ace-high which I'm sure is killed.

I am thinking we want to catch a heart, and not pair the board. That's the 5 and 3 of [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. If the board does pair with one of those, I still want to see a showdown, but just as cheap as possible. I'm still guessing one of these guys has AA or KK so we still might be shown only 2-pair.

I check the turn. Although, with this many folks in a pot this huge, I'm probably missing some bets.

wyrd · #4 12-07-2005, 11:55 PM

I probably would have folded preflop. To call with one raise is fine, but when someone 3-bets there's no doubt you're already dominated. The only thing you'd have going is a flush draw, and that's difficult to play from early position, because you have no idea what sort of odds you're going to get with people yet to act after you.

I'd fold preflop and wait for the next hand.

3-bet on the flop is usually correct with two overcards and the nut flush draw. However you're doing this with a 3-bet preflop, so it may be incorrect to do so in this situation.

As for the turn, check/call. You are on a draw and there's no sign of anyone folding. With the way things have been going, you are most certainly going to get raised.

crovax4444 · #5 12-08-2005, 12:08 AM

*grunch*

I would have reraised PF unless UTG and MP2 are known to be TAG. If they're even remotely loose, I'd cap this thing.

Flop, I would have check raised. With 2 players with preflop agression, this is a good place to get a free bet. Since it looks like the 3 other players you are playing with arn't going to fold, every bet = value.

turn, call. UTG capping on flop = prob agression on the turn.

Wanna explain to me how you can be so sure that UTG has a set of fives? If he was TAG, then he would have limped in for set value, but he raised instead. So it's unlikely he has a 5. I think if you make your flush on the river, it's g00t.

Crovax

Edit:

Wyrd: Quote - "I probably would have folded preflop. To call with one raise is fine, but when someone 3-bets there's no doubt you're already dominated."

I believe that pf, your dominated to the following hands: AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AKs, AQs. That gives you the 7th best hand in this game of 169. If these players are loose and agressive, it's not that likely they hold one of these hands. Play on the flop does narrow their holdings to one of these top 6 hands, but we can't be results oriented now :-p

#6 12-08-2005, 12:18 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Wanna explain to me how you can be so sure that UTG has a set of fives? If he was TAG, then he would have limped in for set value, but he raised instead. So it's unlikely he has a 5. I think if you make your flush on the river, it's g00t.

Crovax

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the advice, I'm liking the check-raise to value bet the flop,
I'm not putting UTG+2 on 5's I'm thinking TT (or 99) as he raised pf & called the 3-bet plus he went banana's on the flop, that's why I'm worried about the 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] & after the turn the 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] because of the boat
Cheers

AlmightyJay · #7 12-08-2005, 12:27 AM

[ QUOTE ]
No reads on any of the players involved in the pot,
Pre-flop call may not of been right but this is one of my "pet hands" so it was hard to lay it down from the BB.

Is it correct two 3-bet the flop here? as I've got the nut flush draw + BDSD, I have got overcards here but I'm not sure if I want to hit them, as I'm thinking MP2 is kicking back with AK.

On the turn I now assume UTG is on a set, therefore I just call, as I now believe I have 8 outs (I'm assuming the 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] will give UTG+2 a boat)

If pumping the draw on the flop is the correct play here does any one lead out for an extra bet on the turn UI when holding the nut draw? or do you wait to see if you hit your hand before going nuts?

Also if the turn was a (non-heart) K or Q should I bet/raise here?

Paradise Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
2 folds, UTG+2 raises, 1 fold, MP2 3-bets, 3 folds, SB calls, Hero calls, UTG+2 calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG+2 raises, MP2 calls, SB calls, Hero 3-bets, UTG+2 caps, MP2 calls, SB calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (14 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, Hero? (lead or check/call)

Thanks in advance,
Gib

[/ QUOTE ]

With the likely bettors on your left, I like check/raising this flop better than betting out. I think it plays differently from there.

UTG+2 really likes his hand - he probably has TT or 99. Your BDSD is gone and I don't think your overcards are good even if I'm wrong about UTG+2's hand. I check/call the turn here.

Also: [ QUOTE ]
Pre-flop call may not of been right but this is one of my "pet hands" so it was hard to lay it down from the BB.

[/ QUOTE ]

Get out of this habit. I fold this preflop without a second thought. You can't have "favorite" hands that you "have" to play. Unless it's Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].

wyrd · #8 12-08-2005, 12:27 AM

[ QUOTE ]

I believe that pf, your dominated to the following hands: AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AKs, AQs. That gives you the 7th best hand in this game of 169. If these players are loose and agressive, it's not that likely they hold one of these hands. Play on the flop does narrow their holdings to one of these top 6 hands, but we can't be results oriented now :-p

[/ QUOTE ]

You forgot to add AKo and AQo. That moves you down the "best hand" chart quite a bit, given the possible combinations of AKo and AQo. Given the fact that he has AJs does not change the fact that he's still dominated by any AK and AQ.

I'm not being results oriented. It's safe to assume that AJ is dominated preflop when someone 3-bets, regardless if they are loose players or not.

#9 12-08-2005, 12:27 AM

grunch

nh, check/call the turn

AlmightyJay · #10 12-08-2005, 12:34 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I believe that pf, your dominated to the following hands: AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AKs, AQs. That gives you the 7th best hand in this game of 169. If these players are loose and agressive, it's not that likely they hold one of these hands. Play on the flop does narrow their holdings to one of these top 6 hands, but we can't be results oriented now :-p

[/ QUOTE ]

You're dominated by AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AKs, AKo, AQs, and AQo. You really think, with no reads, that after a raise and a 3-bet it's unlikely that none of those hands are out? What do you think they're raising with? Unknowns, remember.