Potential Easy Way to Angle Shoot?

[Schneids]

This situation came up with a friend of mine who was playing in the WPT Caribbean tourney. I know he didn't mean to shoot any angles while it occured but I think it's clear how a cheat could do something similar in a NL setting in order to mislead their opponent:

Some of the details are unimportant, but anyway, my friend held AA on a QTx flop. He was facing a rather large bet. He thought the bet amount was X, when in fact it was Y, a larger amount than X. My friend put amount X out, and then got told by the dealer he owed more. My friend asked if he could fold and got informed if he wished to fold the X that he put into the pot had to remain. So my friend decided to call for the full Y to see what would happen.

So then, his opponent, obviously sensing weakness, goes all-in in the dark... Turn was some lowish blank. My friend thinks about it, and changes his read on opponent since this dark all in doesn't feel right if the opponent was so strong. Friend decides to call and beats opponents KQ.


Anyway, say now someone is facing a bet that they know they're going to call... They purposely put out a smaller amount, get told they owe more, and so they ask what their options are and whether folding is allowed (fully knowing either full call or fold and lose what is in the middle).

Easy way to misrepresent hand strength, no? Obviously this would look like blatant cheating if someone tried to pull it when they hold top set on a drawless flop, but say someone holds an overpair or TP in a spot where it might be advantageous to make their opponent overplay something... Or am I just overthinking?

[arkady]

pretty damn clever if not overused!

[Al_Capone_Junior]

Blatant angle shooting? Or "creative misdirection" ??

I'll have to remember this for future use [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

al

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]
pretty damn clever if not overused!

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this an extremely common happening in live NL (I ask since I have played live NL in a casino twice in my life)?

Do you think it's ethical for a player to knowingly employ this 'play'? I personally think because of this very scenario there needs to be a standardized rule that says in NL play (especially tourneys) all betting and raising amounts need to be verbalized by the player making the bet, and that the dealer cannot allow a call by another player in the pot until the bet amount has been verbalized (though a verbalized call by another player before the bet amount has been stated does bind the caller to the pot). Additionally, I think it's silly to allow the caller the fold option once they put any chips into the middle. If the caller puts chips into the middle then they should be forced to put the entire amount in, no exception.

[MMMMMM]

Even deliberate I don't think it would be cheating.

Angle if deliberate? Surely.

Ethical if deliberate? On the "not so very" side.

If a guy makes a habit of pulling moves like this on purpose and slowing down the game a lot I would hope he ends up washing dishes. Once in a blue moon though I wouldn't hold it too terribly against him.

Different cardrooms may have different rules regarding the player's options or obligations. It can pay to know the rules wherever you play.

Best policy when confronted with something like this and it is unclear or a dispute arises is to simply ask for the floor to be called to straighten it out--especially if you are in the pot and don't want to appear to be favoring one way over the other.

[Schneids]

Wouldn't it be very easy for the dealer to tell a player to wait if it looks like he is getting chips ready for a call, until the first better says outloud how much his bet is (or if better doesn't know, dealer then counts out amount and tells the other player(s))?

Seems we agree that overall, someone could use a play like this to shoot an angle. And it seems like if we wanted to a rule could be implemented to element this type of play.

[Randy_Refeld]

I do not like a ruling that puts part of a bet in the pot. I have seen this ruling farily often and it is typically wrong. If a player indicates he is calling he must put in the full bet; if the player does not indicate he is calling he does not have to put money in. There are some rules about not understanding the size of a raise; these rules do not apply when there is a single bet.

Randy Refeld

[edtost]

it's usually pretty clear from the amount of chips out there how much the bet is.

[jar]

I can think of only two cases that it really isn't. If there's a higher value chip mixed in with a number of lower value chips is one. The other is if someone puts out one higher value chip and somebody didn't hear him say raise. When I see someone put out one big chip, I always ask the dealer what the bet is. I find that saves a lot of headaches.