Another ruling question

[Ghazban]

This is from a live no-limit game at Foxwoods a few weeks ago. I'll preface this by saying that, once a hand is heads up, either player can legally expose one or both of their cards without their hand being declared dead. There is often confusion with inexperienced players when they see this as they often infer that the player flipping their cards over is doing so as part of folding.

Anyway, here's what happened:

Fast-talking guy makes a bet, victim raises half his stack. Everybody folds back to fast-talking guy and it is now heads up as nobody between fast-talking guy and victim called FTG's bet. FTG starts talking to victim, trying to get a read or something (more like trying to ensure we don't get enough hands to cover the time charge but whatever...). Eventually, he flips over his TPTK to see if close-mouthed victim will give anything up. Victim looks at FTG's cards, moves his hand forward (but not so far that it touches the muck) and starts pulling his last raise back (clearly, he though FTG was mucking).

FTG instantly says "well, you folded, the pot is mine". He also said something about the forward motion of the cards making it a clear fold. The dealer looks confused but hasn't pulled in victim's cards yet (they are still 8-10 inches from the muck). I speak up and say "wait a minute, your hand is still live-- hold onto your cards" (to victim). I'm just trying to protect victim as he clearly thinks he's won but, if the dealer scoops up his hand and mucks it, he's out. I have no idea if he wanted a call or not with the bet and I don't really care; I just didn't want somebody to win the pot on a technicality.

The dealer still hasn't said a word at this point but she hasn't mucked the hand, either. FTG announces "fold", then pushed his cards to the dealer, who mucked them and pushed the pot to victim. FTG gives me a dirty look after this, but I'm pretty sure I was in the right to protect victim from what was clearly a misunderstanding of the house rules regarding exposed cards.

Does the "forward motion" (FTG's words, not mine) of victim's cards constitute a fold even though it isn't his turn to act? Does forward motion ever constitute a fold? If so, it seems an angle shooter could claim a person is folding just because they moved their cards to get to their chips (or something equally harmless). However, people don't generally announce "fold" anyway, they just push their cards towards the dealer. Where is the line drawn in the somewhat grey area of forward motion and folding?

[jba]

what a tool that guy is

you absolutely did the right thing, this is pretty obviously an angle. what a tool the more I think about it.

I have no idea about your question with the line, but I'm pretty sure forward motion is an infraction in football not poker.

[SheridanCat]

Rules will vary by cardroom, but forward motion does not constitute a muck in-and-of itself (unless there's some local rule). FTG sounds like a bit of an angle-shooter.

You did the right thing. While not in the hand, by speaking up you're protecting the integrity of the game -- so you are justified.

Regards,

T

[Al_Capone_Junior]

I just love these angle shooting jerks who love to quote the rules trying to win pots that aren't rightfully theirs, but yet don't even understand the rules themselves.

In some cardrooms, a hand is dead when the dealer has taken possession of it and it hits the muck. In other rooms, the hand is dead as soon as the dealer has taken possession of it and is dragging it towards the muck(I prefer the second rule). In no room does a simple forward motion "of any kind, no matter how slight and for whatever reason" automatically constitute a fold. Either way, the dealer must take possession of the cards before it's a fold.

There is no situation where you should NOT protect an innocent from an angle-shooting jerk.

al

[DeuceKicker]

I guess a card room can have any kind of crazy rule they can dream up, but I've only heard forward motion used in connection with chips and betting (and even then it opens up plenty of chances for misunderstanding and/or angle-shooting), not cards and folding.

FWIW, I think you did the right thing. I sometimes see the sentiment expressed that you should stay out of these situations (missapplied "one person per hand" rule) if you're not in the hand, but that's crap.

FTG was making up a rule to shoot an angle, and that should never be allowed to slide.

[DeuceKicker]

Al,

You don't want FTG kicked in the nuts?

[Al_Capone_Junior]

FTG needs to be banned for life, THEN kicked in the nuts. Sorry, I thought that was implied.

[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[mrkilla]

5 yards and loss of down...