3-betting the Turn

naphand · #1 10-09-2004, 12:09 PM

The principal leak I have identified in my game, if it is a leak, since returning from holidays is an over-eagerness to 3-bet the Turn. Against stupid players I am becoming a bit LAG on this street. I get the shakes and chills if I don't get enough 3-bets in, am I hooked?

TABLE CONDITIONS:
Maniac OTB (as previous post), 2 loose-passives in BB and CO (playing 50-60% of hands, not much raising) and a Fishy UTG who is loose and somewhat aggressive, and readily cold-calls any hand he normally plays. Great table.

Absolute Poker 2/4 Hold'em (5 handed) converter

Preflop: Naphand is SB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, MP folds, Button calls, Naphand raises, BB calls, UTG calls, Button calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
Naphand bets, BB calls, UTG calls, Button folds.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Naphand bets, BB raises, UTG folds, Naphand 3-bets, BB calls.

River: (10.50 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Naphand bets, BB calls.

Final Pot: 12.50 BB
Main Pot: 12.50 BB, between Naphand and BB.

My feeling is that this is a good spot to call down. I don't have the straight that he fears, my 3-bet achieves nothing unless I am ahead. Am I ahead enough to warrant this action?

balkii · #2 10-09-2004, 01:51 PM

Am I ahead enough to warrant this action?

You raised a multiway pot PF from the blinds, bet the flop, bet the turn, and are now facing a turn raise from a loose passive. Do YOU think he's raising a worse one pair hand?

naphand · #3 10-09-2004, 01:53 PM

These guys do not even consider the size of the field, they play their own cards. It is certainly possible he has a good J, so yes he could be playing that and I do have a massive SIX outs if behind...

The table have seen me raise hands like AK, KQs and lower pairs from the blinds so even if they were watching me (unlikely) they cannot put me hard on a J or overpair.

I think you are giving them too much credit. I think I am perhaps not giving them enough credit... [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img] but maybe not, he only calls my 3-bet, presumably fearing QT, which is clearly a raising hand PF from the BB... [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

balkii · #4 10-09-2004, 02:09 PM

i'm just saying, against a player that you have a specific read on as "PASSIVE" your are probably behind here most of the time. And you can't fold to a 4 bet either, and will probably be forced to call on the river unimproved given the size of the pot.

naphand · #5 10-09-2004, 04:23 PM

Indeed, I think I already know this. At these limits a raise like this very often means you are in trouble, unless you have a specific read otherwise. Looking back, I think a 3-bet is very often capped (unless player is very passive, which looks the case here). This is kinda odd, but I guess many passives simply do not raise unless they have a really big hand, but will cap a lot of these as they know they have you beat. Here, there were two hands that were better (QT and 99) than my opponent's. He bet his monster and then went "uh, he has the nuts" (disregarding my possible hands from PF action, which would leave precisely 99 and then a lot of other non-nut hands he beats).

I think the problem is I am getting into attack mode with the LAG to my right, and this is slipping over. That and the tendency to disrespect players when I see playing so much crap.

You are right though, I was guilty of simply not thinking about this raise. I need to get back to just pausing for thought when catching a raise like this, when it is not entirely obvious what I am against, but where circumstance demands that I cool it... [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Nate tha' Great · #6 10-09-2004, 04:53 PM

I don't think this is a bad spot to 3-bet, but it depends on your opponent. It's not as important to 3-bet when you're in position (e.g. after you are check-raised) since your opponent will usually follow through on the river with a missed draw or some other weak hand. Here where he could check behind on the river I think it's more important to charge him.

I think a lot of the time here you'll be up against a hand that was improved by the turn, but not enough to beat your hand. For example, QJ, JT, Q9, T9, T8, 97 and any pair/flush draw combo like A3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] could play it this way:

QJ - 6 combos
JT - 12 combos
T9 - 12 combos
T8 - 12 combos
97 - 12 combos
Q9 - 6 combos
KJ, AJ, JT, A3, K3 of spades - 5 combos

total - 65 combos

The made hands that you're afraid of are
QT - 8 combos
98 - 9 combos
J9 - 9 combos
JJ, 99, 88, 33 - 12 combos total
total - 38 combos

That list isn't exhaustive, and he won't *always* play a made hand + redraw that way (on the other hand he sometimes WILL play "just" top pair or just a pure semibluff this way), but I think you're ahead enough to justify a 3-bet quite often here.

fsuplayer · #7 10-09-2004, 08:48 PM

I dont hate it. He could have been on a draw and picked up a pair that beats your 'overs'.

fsuplayer