Something I re-read about in HEFAP that I thought applied here

[Gomez22]

Empire .50/1.00 - Loose table, very passive

I'm button with 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

UTG limps, UTG+1 limps, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 limps, MP4 limps, CO limps, I limp, SB completes, BB checks.

FLOP(8 SB): 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Let's see... bottom pair, backdoor flush & gutshot straight draws.....

Checked around to me, I bet, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP3 folds, MP4 calls, CO calls.

TURN(6.5 BB): 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

BB checks, UTG bets, MP4 folds, CO folds, I call, BB calls.

RIVER(9.5 BB): 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

BB checks, UTG bets, I raise, BB folds, UTG calls.

MHIG... BB held pocket queens

I just re-read about how if you have mid pair and a backdoor flush draw OR a gutshot draw, it's usually correct to bet in these situations, and considering I had bottom pair, gutshot and backdoor flush draws, does anyone else think this is a good bet on the flop?

[ScottTheFish]

If it's a good idea to bet this into all those people with a small pot and a pretty weak hand, I'd love to understand why. I'm not saying it's not good, but I would rather take the free card and see if the turn gave me any real draws. Betting and getting check-raised here would suck.

But maybe there is some advanced concept here that I'm missing.

[Trix]

I take the free card, dont think that enough of your outs are clean to bet for value and also dont think that there is any chance that they all fold.

[Gomez22]

I never expected them all to fold, but I had (if I remember correctly) 9 outs on the flop, and something like 17 on the turn.....

[Trix]

I´m not sure that you wanna see a 7 since it gives a Ten a straight. The Ten will give a Q a better straight. The backdoor flush is good most of the time and same with another 8 if a 7, T or Q doesnt come.

[Mike Gallo]

I like the flop bet.

The player who held QQ lost himself the pot by not raising preflop and by not check raising the flop.

[Brian]

Hi Gomez,

I am betting this Flop when checked to 100% of the time, and it's pretty much automatic. However, it does not have anything to do with that concept from HPFAP. The concept that you are referring to has to do with when you are in early position and have a hand that is worth calling if you check or almost worth calling if you check, such as 2nd pair with a backdoor Flush draw. In those situations it is better to bet not only as a semi-bluff, hoping that everyone will fold, but also because it adds deception to your hand/future hands and because you might actually have the best hand. But this does not apply when you are in last position because you can just check and take the free card. All of that being said, like I said at the beginning of the post, I am betting, not taking the free card, in this situation.

-Brian

[Mike Gallo]

However, it does not have anything to do with that concept from HPFAP. The concept that you are referring to has to do with when you are in early position and have a hand that is worth calling if you check or almost worth calling if you check, such as 2nd pair with a backdoor Flush draw. In those situations it is better to bet not only as a semi-bluff, hoping that everyone will fold, but also because it adds deception to your hand/future hands and because you might actually have the best hand. But this does not apply when you are in last position because you can just check and take the free card. All of that being said, like I said at the beginning of the post, I am betting, not taking the free card, in this situation.

Somebody did their homework. Excellent explanation.

[spamuell]

I would also bet here, Brian, and it would also be automatic - and that's the problem. I don't know why I'd bet here. Maybe I knew once, maybe I didn't, maybe I just feel "I've got a pair and a draw, don't I? I'm a tight-aggressive player, aren't I? It's been checked to me hasn't it? Bet!"

What are the reasons for betting here?

Thanks

[Brian]

Hi spamuell,

Because everyone checked to a non pre-Flop raiser. A free card likely hurts you more than it helps you, even though the field is large. It is unlikely you are facing a Jack, and while a 9 may call you all the way to the River, them's the breaks. I would like to fold out people with a naked Queen, thus helping to clear up my gutshot outs. I would also like to fold out someone with an 8 with a better kicker.

-Brian