PLO Hand - Comments Requested

[MilesDavis]

PLO $100 max buy-in. I think I made a couple mistakes, looking for comments.

Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 2: PLAYER2 ( $88)
Seat 3: PLAYER3 ( $97)
Seat 4: PLAYER4 ( $83.45)
Seat 5: PLAYER5 ( $178.60)
Seat 6: PLAYER6 (aggressive, bluffs) ( $303.20)
Seat 7: PLAYER7 ( $255)
Seat 8: ME ( $218)
Seat 9: PLAYER8 (loose, makes poor calls) ( $517.75)
Seat 10: PLAYER9 ( $97.25)
PLAYER5 posts small blind (1)
PLAYER6 (aggressive, bluffs) posts big blind (2)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to ME [ Ad, Ac, 8d, Qc ]
PLAYER7 calls (2)
ME calls (2)
PLAYER8 (loose, makes poor calls) folds.
PLAYER9 calls (2)
PLAYER2 calls (2)
PLAYER3 calls (2)
PLAYER4 raises (17) to 17
PLAYER5 folds.
PLAYER6 (aggressive, bluffs) calls (15)
PLAYER7 calls (15)
ME calls (15)
PLAYER9 folds.
PLAYER2 calls (15)
PLAYER3 folds.
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 5c, 6s, 2c ]
PLAYER6 (aggressive, bluffs) checks.
PLAYER7 checks.
ME checks.
PLAYER2 checks.
PLAYER4 checks.
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 5h ]
PLAYER6 (aggressive, bluffs) checks.
PLAYER7 checks.
ME checks.
PLAYER2 checks.
PLAYER4 bets (35)
PLAYER6 (aggressive, bluffs) calls (35)
PLAYER7 calls (35)
ME folds.
PLAYER2 folds.
** Dealing River ** : [ 7c ]
PLAYER6 (aggressive, bluffs) checks.
PLAYER7 checks.
PLAYER4 checks.
** Summary **
Main Pot: $192 | Rake: $3
Board: [ 5c 6s 2c 5h 7c ]
PLAYER4 balance $31.45, lost $52 [ Kh 6d Kd 7h ] [ two pairs, kings and fives -- Kh,Kd,7c,5c,5h ]
PLAYER5 balance $177.60, lost $1 (folded)
PLAYER6 (aggressive, bluffs) balance $251.20, lost $52 [ 8s 7d 4s 6c ] [ a straight, four to eight -- 8s,7c,6s,5c,4s ]
PLAYER7 balance $395, bet $52, collected $192, net +$140 [ 7s 9d 8c 3c ] [ a flush, eight high -- 8c,7c,5c,3c,2c ]
ME balance $201, lost $17 (folded)
PLAYER8 (loose, makes poor calls) balance $517.75, didn't bet (folded)

I think my biggest mistake was not reraising the max when there was pot size raise and THREE callers. I mean that is what AA look for. And mine where double suited with the Q at least connected to the AA. I didn't do it b/c I had a big enough stack that I didn't want to be put to a decision on a busted flop against at least one agressive player. Also that dangling 8 bothered me a bit. I might have made other errors as I folded the winning hand, but I still feel the fold was the right move on the Turn. Looking for feedback. TIA

[Greg (FossilMan)]

You could've gotten Player 4 all-in preflop with a reraise, and most likely would've gotten all the other to fold. Then, win or lose, you're getting the best of it.

The only reason to NOT raise preflop here is because you expect a raise behind, and you plan on reraising. If you're not going to reraise after you limp, then raise coming in to build a pot for your premium hand.

The only reason to limp and not reraise here is because your game plan is to NEVER raise preflop, under any circumstances. Not a great game plan, but better than some I see out there.

You also should've bet the flop, IMO. You've got decent equity against any hand, even the made straight, and there's a good chance you'll take it down against anything less than a made straight and/or a set.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[MilesDavis]

[ QUOTE ]
The only reason to limp and not reraise here is because your game plan is to NEVER raise preflop, under any circumstances. Not a great game plan, but better than some I see out there.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am new to potlimit and not raising really is my game plan at the moment as to avoid big swings. So I never come in for a raise (limp with playable hands), just generally reraise with AA cordinated hand. I know in the long term this is too simplistic, but is working now. As I get more familiar with the game I am going to try to mix it up a little more. Thanks for the comments.

[Acesover8s]

IMO, you played this hand terribly. Read Greg's post about limp-raising with AA. Then read it again. You could stay profitable in this game by only limp raising with AA and folding all other hands. One point that I'm not sure if Greg makes clear is that to open with a raise in EP with AA, if you're not a player who raises with other hands, is suicide. I seek out players who play this way and call their raises with hands that I would fold normally, in fact, I would call with any four cards (assuming the table is not loose enough to all come in as well).

Either way, you got the perfect opportunity to get most of player 4s chips in preflop, and if you do get 4 callers, you've still got the best of it.

So, now here comes the flop. When you have AAxx in PLO there are four flops you'd like to see (although you will frequently bet more. These are flopping an A, flopping a pair on the board, flopping a made flush, or flopping 4 to the flush.

So you got your flop, fire those chips in.

Many players think they have to play PLO by waiting to put in chips until they have the nuts. Its not true, its a game of poker, bluffing, deception, trapping, etc, are all part of the game.

One thing I will be contrary about howevery. Although I raise preflop with almost every hand I play in PLO, I do not do this on Partypoker (where it looks like this hand took place). The reasons being that the stacks are too small and the players too cally wally to give up on the hand if they flop even 1 pair. But, I still raise on this site with more hands than AA.

Sorry if I'm rambling. I love this game.

[Acesover8s]

[ QUOTE ]
I am new to potlimit and not raising really is my game plan at the moment as to avoid big swings.

[/ QUOTE ]

A better strategy would be to play looser and more playful at a lower limit. PLO is not a game where you can avoid big swings.

[crockpot]

i definitely don't like the preflop call. in my mind the only question is whether the better play is to:

- reraise pot immediately to get the most money in

or

- reraise less than pot, hoping seat 4 pushes in, and you can push in on top of that because your reraise is now a legal bet. to do this you should make it about 45 to go.

i would have definitely bet the flop. hands that call big raises do not like this kind of board. even if you are called you still have a solid draw to fall back on.

on the turn, the second 5 doesn't help your hand, but i would hardly be scared by a bet of less than half the pot from a guy who raised pot preflop, or a call from an aggressive player. the only guy you should be fearing is player 7. i would expect player 4 to show down a lower pocket pair than my aces, and the others probably also have lower pairs, or straight and flush draws.

if you hit your flush on the river and someone now comes out betting pot, you may have to fold fearing someone has hit a full house, but i wouldn't fold on the turn. your hand is too strong against this weak action from the opponents. in fact, i would strongly consider pushing in to protect my hand. it depends on the opponents.

[MilesDavis]

Acesover - Great post. I liked your comments especially on what type flops AA like. I knew them sort of implictly, but a pair on the board was one I hadn't really considered.

I know Party isn't a good place to fully learn a game as there are still lots of players who will call pot size bets when I have the nuts and redraws and they have long shot draws.

I don't raise more as I am still not very good at figuring out where other players are at. Some are very agressive and it is of course easier to just play hands that flop near perfect. I don't know how I am going to get out of my rut, but I am going to work on it.

crockpot - Good comments as well. Learned a lot from this thread.