When/should i give this up?

#1 12-14-2005, 07:17 AM

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
2 folds, CO calls, Button calls, SB completes, Hero raises, CO calls, Button 3-bets, SB folds, Hero caps, CO calls, Button calls.

Flop: (13 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, CO raises, Button calls, Hero 3-bets, CO caps, Button calls, Hero calls.

Maybe the 3-bet was bad and once villian raised I should have played it like a drawing hand. Many/most players would raise in that position with top pair, so I felt a 3-bet would get a better feel where i was at ...

Turn: (12.50 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Button raises, Hero ??

Can I call 2 more here (with the posibility of a re-raise) drawing to a Q-high flush? Pot biiiiig

Str8Fish · #2 12-14-2005, 07:47 AM

I don't know much about 6-max, but the strength that both of the other players is showing is that there is already flushes out there, possibly with the ace/king or even a set. You didn't provide any reads on the players at all, so it's hard to say if it's just some idiot raising it up for the hell of it or not. If they are good players, I'd ditch this hand.

#3 12-14-2005, 07:59 AM

Any reads? I have only played 10 handed but whenever I see a limp raise I "know" with about 90% confidence the donk has AA or KK. If this is the case (Button has KK+) and if CO is a decent player you are in big trouble on this hand. Button's call is a bit confusing so I don't exactly hate the flop 3-bet but I would not have done it myself for fear of a cap by CO. At 17:1 I would have just called.

On the turn your chance of winning this "biiiiig" pot are again diminished (it would have been nice to see the A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] or K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]) and you are probably going to pay 4 bets to see the river so the "biiiiig" pot is giving you slightly better than 4:1. So unless you have reads on these two you're best off folding.

Edit: Forgot to say that at 17:1 I would have just called (where you made it three) on the flop. I would have paid to see the what developed on the turn.

#4 12-14-2005, 08:21 AM

Good post!

I wanted to say check the flop with a pot that big (your bet makes's it 14 SB) intending to raise after the button bets - but since you capped pre-flop and based on button's pre-flop play it is likely he will raise if you bet - I reconsidered and think the bet is good. That being said, I do not like CO's donk-raise so I probably would have only called vice 3-bet for the reasons that you noted.

The turn makes my stomach do somersaults...I'm a big wuss so I'm folding and hating myself for it. Yes, the pot is big but cold-calling koncks your pot odds down to 6:1 and IMO if we are behind (I think we are,...we can beat a bluffer, but not a bluffer and a caller here) we are only drawing to the 2 remaining queens (I do not think 3rd nut flush will win this so I discount the flush outs - am I wrong here?)

Again, good post!

#5 12-14-2005, 09:13 AM

I would have called the flop raise.
I can't decide whether I would have donked or c/r the turn.

Button comes alive on a 6 and raised two people. He's got the goods, fold. I put him on 22 or a slowplayed nut flush.

If he was a 2+2er, I'd definitely call. A good 2+2er would probably raise T9 here.

#6 12-14-2005, 09:30 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Button comes alive on a 6 and raised two people. He's got the goods, fold. I put him on 22 or a slowplayed nut flush.

If he was a 2+2er, I'd definitely call. A good 2+2er would probably raise T9 here.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you suppose was the purpose of Button's preflop limp/raise??

#7 12-14-2005, 09:38 AM

Wow, I don't see how to answer your question without reads. They appear to be aggro maniacs, but if one is anywhere near TAG, you are behind.

I like the pf cap as it put 2 back to the CO, who has shown no pf aggression.

flop - CO likes that board. set? Flush?, 2 pr, or worse? And, now the button is passive, but calling all. Overpair? 1 club?
I think I call the raise here and start looking for help. If your reads are for aggro-donks, then I might 3 bet.

Turn - now both are active. I gotta believe that one of them has me beat now, but can I get odds to hit my Q? You have 2 pretty clean outs, the Qs, and I might give you 2-3 more outs for a club, but you could improve to the 2nd or 3rd best flush, and you could be behind a boat now.

IF there guys are aggro-donks, I call here. If not, I'm inclined to fold.

imported_The Vibesman · #8 12-14-2005, 09:55 AM

I actually would have given some thought to donking the turn here. I can see CO playing a pair+flush draw on the flop like this and button coming along with an overpair. My hope with the turn donk would be to either have both players just call me, proving they don't have flushes/boats, or to have CO raise and button fold, and to call CO down from there.

As is, I think you fold the turn. I think your flush outs may be good against one player but not both.

#9 12-14-2005, 09:56 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Button comes alive on a 6 and raised two people. He's got the goods, fold. I put him on 22 or a slowplayed nut flush.

If he was a 2+2er, I'd definitely call. A good 2+2er would probably raise T9 here.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you suppose was the purpose of Button's preflop limp/raise??

[/ QUOTE ]

I missed that. Definitely fold.

Songwind · #10 12-14-2005, 10:12 AM

*grunch*
Preflop good.
I like the flop 3-bet, the cap tells us we're probably behind a flush or trips.
Turn: Button wakes up out of nowhere, and it's 2 to cold call for us in a 15.5BB pot that may very well be 3-bet behind us. We have 9 outs to the 3rd nut flush, which may well be good, and 2 clean outs to a full house. I am afraid our boat outs with the 6s are dirty based on button's play (maybe the 6 filled his set of 10s?). I think we're going to spend 4 bets on this street to win 20. Button is playing like he has a full house, which ruins our flush draw.. I think I have to fold this.