Interesting turn decision, strong hand against MP open limp

flair1239 · #1 08-31-2005, 01:12 PM

Villian is 17/8/2 after about 500 hands. Does not seem to get out of line much. Have never seen anything overly tricky, straight forward solid player.

Button and BB are loose players

Party 5/10 (10 players)

Hero is CO with Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

PF: Folded to MP2 villian who limps, Hero limps, SB calls, BB checks

Flop: 4 players; 4 SB: Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

SB check, BB check, Villian bets, I raise, Blinds fold, Villian calls.

Turn: 2 players; (about 4BB) Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Villian bets, Hero raises, Villian three-bets, Hero ...

I limped behind, because I did not think an isolation raise would work, also I really did not see my hand being much better than anything he would open limp with. The open limp kind of confused me, as I consider this player schooled enough, that I would expect him to raise with any hand he was planning on playing here. I briefly considered mucking pre-flop, but decided I probably had overcards to a PP or he was playing some big little suited.

More interested in hand reading on this one than anything. Also comments on my play thus far.

SeaEagle · #2 08-31-2005, 01:30 PM

I think you're facing a flopped set or KQ most of the time here. A 17/8 player is typically limping with a very small range of hands - middle pairs, maybe KQ or Axs(J and lower). Although to be honest, I don't understand why villian would bet the flop but not 3-bet it with any of these hands.

The turn play is fishy enough that I think it's close between capping and calling. You're ahead some of the time. If you're behind, you have somewhere between 7 and 10 outs to either a chop or a win. You can't get reraised. I'd stick the last raise in.

flair1239 · #3 08-31-2005, 01:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Although to be honest, I don't understand why villian would bet the flop but not 3-bet it with any of these hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the key issue to me. Either the turn improved him, in which case I am dealing with another Queen, or he slowplayed a flopped set, or just something completely goofy which would be out of line for this player who typically does not get out of line.

Then I wonder about the donkbet. If he has info on me (which is likely), he has to figure there is a good chance I am betting again on the turn, whether I have a queen or not. So I am wondering why he did not checkraise me?

I am kind of wondering about my turn raise. If he was just taking a poke, my raise would fold him, I am also not sure with this type of player on this board that he is three betting with a worse hand too often. I am wondering if letting him fire at the river after just calling the turn might be better?

PTjvs · #4 08-31-2005, 01:48 PM

I think QJs is also possible. At this point in the hand though, you are dealing with at LEAST another Q, if not a flopped set, if the villian is sane.

jvs

flair1239 · #5 08-31-2005, 02:00 PM

Let's do it this way. Assume we have a reasonable villian.

What can he think I have after I limp pre-flop, raise the flop, then raise his donkbet on the turn?

Assuming he is thinking about what I may have, what could he put me on?

bigalt · #6 08-31-2005, 02:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think QJs is also possible. At this point in the hand though, you are dealing with at LEAST another Q, if not a flopped set, if the villian is sane.

jvs

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd just like to throw in the possibility of QTs and Q9s into the mix, since Ed says to call with those in MP. That said, I'm just calling.

DocMartin · #7 08-31-2005, 02:07 PM

Given your read, you have to put him on a 55,77, QJ or QTs (or re-evaluate your read). 55 seems most likely since the others are decent candidates for raising MP. Against this guy I call it down if I dont see a J or Q on the river.

shant · #8 08-31-2005, 02:19 PM

I don't see what he can have here that beats you that he didn't make a mistake with preflop.

hobbsmann · #9 08-31-2005, 02:27 PM

Like Shant said, I think a guy with these stats open raises in his position with all hands that are currently beating you. That being said I'm hard pressed to come up with a hand range for him here. Does he open limp QJs/QTs in this position?

Would capping the turn and calling the river if he beats out, or beating if checked to, be spewing?

Entity · #10 08-31-2005, 02:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see what he can have here that beats you that he didn't make a mistake with preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see anything he can have here that he didn't make a mistake with preflop.