What I still don't get

[Greeksquared]

I am fairly suprised I have yet to see someone mention anything about what happened at the final table of this last weeks' WPT.

Why is Daniel N. calling 500,000 on the river with king high on a paired board. He said outloud a couple hands that he had beat. Great, he thought of two hands at the river that he could have beat. He called off a fourth(? not sure) of his stack because he was curious. You would think a great player like him does not have to be so curious to give his opponent ten percent of the chips in play. He also called 100,000 during another pot out of pure curiosity. Sometimes the plays these guys make amaze me and nobody else seems to catch on. I see very little good coming in being curious as it gives you very little information on your opponent. Especially one that you know very well.

Another hand I thought was attrociously played was DN's 86 vs Williams 66. Both players played absolutely horrid. Williams made a good call on a king high flop. Daniel then procedes to give up the hand with his reaction to the call on the flop. He clearly gives up the hand on TV. I know it is much much harder to tell when you are down to the final two of a major tournament, but you are a pro, make a read. I dont see how these top pros give away their hand so easily. After the cards were turned on the river, Williams states that he knew he had Daniel beat on the turn. I hate when people say that, but don't act on their thoughts.

So, I still don't see how a pro can make these moves, it absolutely baffles me. Control your emotions...you do this for a living. Control your desire to be curious and splurge a quarter of your chips.

I'm not saying Daniel is bad(his results speak for themsleves), just that he could be much better with some self control.

[jah0550]

This belongs in the WPT threads!

[aggie]

I disagree with almost everything you say. By and large, i was very impressed with the way they both played. And despite what DN says, he had a much better reasons to make those calls than "i'm just curious"....He thought he might be ahead, and the pot was offering him good pot odds.

DW suspected a bluff on the 66-86 hand but should not have said "i knew....)....If he knew he clearly would have raised...he suspected..DN played the hand well....He took a stab at the pot and slowed down when he got resistance....And then he got lucky....that's poker...

[Greeksquared]

So you think the quarter stack call was a good one with king high. As for the 86 hand, his betting of the hand was poor but his emotions displayed were awful during that hand, which consequently makes his play bad.

He actually is curious when he makes those calls. He knows he is beat. He just does not have the control to fold a hand when he only beats some bluffs. I think alot of people give the pros too much credit. Again I am not saying Negreanu is bad, just some suspect play.

I also understand how I don't know what its like to be at a final table playing poker for 2 or more straight days. Im sure I would do alot of things that I normally wouldn't do. Perhaps call away a pot-comitted opponent with Q7o or put a pot-comitted opponent all-in on a bluff.

Im just stumped sometimes at the play. I am also amazed at their good plays.

[That guy]

Watch Negreanu more... he says that a lot when he makes a call on the end... he says "I don't why I am calling this" or "I am just giving you money"... but actually, he thinks there is a decent chance that his opponent is bluffing given the way the hand was played...

Negreanu is a master of hand reading thru betting patterns. I think he is probably the best in the world at this. Sometimes he is wrong on his read but lots of times he picks off bluffs where you don't know how he did it. Yet he always says something like that on the end.

In reality, he thinks that the pot odds offered relative to the chances his hand is good is attractive.... Ask any pro and they will say they have seen DN make some amazing calls.

That said, the K2 hand seemed out of line... 1/4 of your stack is just too much in that spot. He must have REALLY felt DW was bluffing to call for that much.

DN makes incredible reads. But even DN is going to look dumb once in a while...

but net net, Negreanu is an amazing player.

[aggie]

Sitting around and waiting fot the nutz is just not gonna get it when you're heads up with a hyperaggressive player at the end of the tourney. DN's calls were pot-odds calls...He thought there was a good enough chance to make a call given a particular sized pot. I would argue that they had nothing to do with a lack of disipline or curiosity....Maybe he made some bad reads but that is better than the alternative of not adjusting to DW's hyper-aggressive play and waiting for the nuts...

[MrMon]

I wonder if he's practising what's known as "thin slicing". It's a technique where an expert knows the correct move, but because of the way the brain works, you don't know why, you just have a gut instinct. I'm no master of it, but I've tried it in some of my online SnGs, where you've got even less info than in a B&M game. If you're in the zone on a particular player, it can work amazingly well.

It's an interesting concept. See the book "Blink!" for more.

[otnemem]

He had king high. Calling a quarter of your stack to "outplay" a hyperaggressive opponent is nonsense.

[aggie]

[ QUOTE ]
He had king high. Calling a quarter of your stack to "outplay" a hyperaggressive opponent is nonsense.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an absolutely absurd statement....Let's say you have a brilliant read on your opponent. you put him on a strait draw (7 high)...The pot is laying 3-1.....You CAN NOT fold K-high if you have any confidence in you're read....Clearly DN had a read that K-high was good (he probably put DW on a stone bluff) and so he called...he happened to be wrong

But making the blanket statement that you should never call with king high is rediculous! There is nothing wrong with trying to "outplay" your opponent....As a matter of fact I think that is the point of the game [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[xorbie]

A quarter stack is a bit high, but it is a very good metagame move, and this matters a lot headsup.