How long do you stick with a big pair that refuses to improve?

[lstream]

This hand is typical of many I have played recently. I start with a big pair and nothing improves. Would you have called this all the way to the river? Also, what if seat 4 had caught a pair (not counting the ace) - would you have continued given that your big pair likely has his big pair beat?

Empire 3/6 8 handed

seat 1 : XXX XX 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]____BRIN___FOLD
seat 2 : XXX XX Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___CALL___FOLD
seat 3 : K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___COMP___CALL
seat 4 : XXX XX Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___RAISE
seat 5 : XXX XX 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___FOLD
seat 6 : XXX XX A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___CALL
seat 7 : XXX XX J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___FOLD
seat 8 : XXX XX 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___FOLD

Seat 4 is a solid player. He knows enough to raise with a big pair to drive other people out. I thought that he believed I had split jacks.

4th

seat 3 : K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___CALL
seat 4 : XXX XX Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___BET
seat 6 : XXX XX A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___FOLD

5th

seat 3 : K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___CALL
seat 4 : XXX XX Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___BET

6th

seat 3 : K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 10[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___CALL
seat 4 : XXX XX Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___BET

7th

seat 3 : K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 10[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___CALL
seat 4 : XXX XX Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] XX___BET

[jon_1van]

I play it exactly the same.

I'm don't enjoy doing it. But I don't think there is a point where you can fold.

It's kinda surprising to see seat 6 fold for 1 SB after calling 2 cold.

[7stud]

Your big pair was hidden, and you had a straight flush kicker up, so you had a great starting hand, and raising to limit the field was a good play. If no one folded, your hand still played well multiway.

Thanks to the Queen's reraise, your combined bets knocked a lot of people out. Also, with the Jack up, your raise didn't reveal the true strength of your hand. I probably would have reraised the Queen again on 3rd street-especially since one of the Queens was dead. There was no reason to think the Queen had anything stronger than a pair of queens, and the Queen didn't need a high kicker, e.g. an Ace, to raise in that position. The Queen might also have raised with a high 3 flush. I think if you had an unsuited jack kicker, then if you reraised the Queen, it might have set up one of those situations where the pot was so large, that it would be hard to get anyone to fold on 4th street and get it heads up. But, with the suited kicker your hand played well multi way, so rerasing the Queen was reasonable.

Playing it sneaky by just calling the Queen's raise can also be a good play because it doesn't reveal the strength of your hand, but with two callers, I would reraise to make them pay the maximum to outdraw you. When you did decide to just call the reraise, then I think you should have had it in the back of your mind that you still had one barrel of your gun loaded, and you had the ammunition to get in a reraise at a later date, like 4th or 5th street, in order to convince one or both of your opponents to fold.

It looked like you had the best hand, and nothing threatening developed in your opponent’s hand, so you had to stay all the way and hope you made two pair. On fourth street, you were slightly more than a 2:1 favorite to win the hand if you were up against a pair of Queens(one other Queen was dead as well as one of the Aces). You were in a great money making situation—it just didn’t work out. That’s poker.

[MRBAA]

Yes, if he makes an open pair you can fold your one pair to a river bet, I think. But please, please, reraise third. You are very likely well ahead of semi-dead queens here, pound in your money. Doing this also may buy you a free card on sixth if you want one, although in this case I'd probably have bet sixth and taken a freebie on the river if I didn't catch a second pair.

[lstream]

Good advice on the re-raise. My reason for not doing so is not so sound, I'm afraid. I can't remember the last time that my big pair (aces or kings) has improved in subsequent streets. I know that this should not influence my play, but in the back of my mind, this history was playing on me and forcing a more careful style of play. The opponent in question also entered into my thinking, considering he is a good player. Not good.

[7stud]

...please, please, reraise third...Doing this also may buy you a free card on sixth if you want one

Initially, I also considered that as one of the benefits of reraising on 3rd street: the Queen would likely check to the Kings, which would allow the Kings to take a free card at anytime--but I don't think it's true. The times the Kings are going to want a free card are those times when his opponent improves his hand and the Kings doesn't, and the opponent isn't going to check anymore in those situations.

[MRBAA]

Good point, particularly against someone described as a "good player".

[jon_1van]

I'm not so sure about reraising third. If you raise here you are more likely to play this hand 3 way the whole hand instead of heads up at some point.

A reraise would be a great idea if you knew the raise would cap it and the A would fold. But I don't think you can assume this.

I think calling is best because it gives you the best chance to get it heads up later. And because you can't be 100% sure the A doesn't have AA he did call 2 cold and he might have decided not to raise to keep from forcing you out.

Without a good read I think this is a call. But it is pretty close

[7stud]

My reason for not doing so is not so sound, I'm afraid. I can't remember the last time that my big pair (aces or kings) has improved in subsequent streets.

That could also be looked at as a reason to raise: you would be announcing that you have queens beat. It's analogous to when you play small rolled up trips fast. I had rolled up eights recently, and I all but turned over my cards and showed them to all the callers. I reraised higher up cards twice on 3rd street, bet into possible 4 flushes on 4th street and reraised a late position raiser, and on 5th street bet into a hand with 3 flush cards showing, which finally convinced that player to fold, but I still had two other pesky callers who finally got the message with my bet on 6th street. I started with 4 callers and raisers on 3rd street, but I played my hand in such a way that I announced I had trip eights on every street, which finally convinced everyone to fold. Sometimes announcing your hand is the best way to win the pot.


I'm not so sure about reraising third. If you raise here you are more likely to play this hand 3 way the whole hand instead of heads up at some point. A reraise would be a great idea if you knew the raise would cap it and the A would fold. But I don't think you can assume this.

I would agree with you if the kicker was an unsuited jack and the hand needed to be heads up. But, the hand plays fine multiway with the suited Jack, so I think getting the most money in the pot with the best hand takes precedence.

[BeerMoney]

I'm ok with the 3rd street call for deception. I would have raised 4th street.

C'mon Lstream, you gotta play this game with your sac.