Standard line against 2 donks

[gol4pro]

These 2 guys were probably the worst donks I've ever met in my entire life. Trust me-- they saw every river.

I think my turn bet sucked... probably should have either pushed or overbet... what do you think?

stacks 200$, 1/2 6 max.

I raise Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] on button to 8$, donks call in SB,BB. pot 25

Flop K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
-- check, check, I value bet 12$ (for my draw), 2 calls

Pot 60
Turn 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
-- check, check, i bet 45, call, call

pot 195
River 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]-- Check, check, i bet 55, call, call

I think you should have bet more on the river.

[rikz]

[ QUOTE ]
I value bet 12$ (for my draw),

[/ QUOTE ]

You really can't value bet an open ended straight draw. At this point, A-high is beating you. So, your bet is only good as a semi-bluff, and a semi-bluff is only good if it has some fold equity. As a semi-bluff, your bet is not big enough. You bet $12 into into two calling stations playing for a $25 pot. Semi-bluffing calling stations = chip spewing. So, in position, check and take a free card on the flop. If you really want to bluff the calling stations, at least bet the pot (but taking a free card here is best). That way, on the turn, you can bet (or raise if someone bets) the pot and expect a worse hand to call (like 2-pair or TPWK, or something). On the river, with the board pairing, I'd check behind. Your straight is no longer so great since any reasonable hand that calls a big river bet will be a T9 or K9 for the boat.

Here's the alternate line I'd have taken:

Flop: Check behind (pot $20)
Turn: Checked to me, I bet $20, get 2 callers (pot $80)
River: Checked to me, I check behind and win/lose $80.

EDIT: Value betting this river is fine, given your read, and the fact that it's unlikely a boat on the river would just check to you. So, a value bet of $40 would be good. I would probably still check behind and miss out on $80. "Why" because I read somewhere that in no limit you shouldn't bet or raise if a reraise will make you puke and a check raise all in here would make me puke.

[NYCNative]

[ QUOTE ]
These 2 guys were probably the worst donks I've ever met in my entire life. Trust me-- they saw every river.

[/ QUOTE ]If that's the case, I pot the turn and pot the river. Even if you lose one of them, you make more money with donk calls from one than you did stringing both along.

[gol4pro]

Albert, I must respectfully disagree with you on the flop bet.

Checking here sucks for several reasons.
a) Small pot if I do hit
b) They're more likely not to lead into me ont he turn if I bet flop... although they're not likely to lead into me anyway.
c) I'm losing value by not value betting a draw.

Is it not VERY common practice in low-limit fixed limit games to ram and jam a nut flush draw in order to drag along 4-5 callers and be making value on your draw that is 2:1? Same thing is working here. I'm slightly better than 2:1 to hit my draw, because I have the BD flush draw working as well. As long as I have 2$ going in for every 1$ I bet on the flop, I'm making money, not to count the greater implied odds gained by increasing the pot size.

It really wasn't a semi-bluff, because I knew nobody was going to fold the flop. Potting it and losing 1 of them does me no good, because now its heads up, and only 1 donk to pay me off.

In short, yes I was betting for value on the flop.

I agree in theory with arguements for checking the flop but in the heat of battle I probably do the same as you.

Once I catch the nut straight on the turn, it's time to charge the donkeys the full looking price. With a $60 pot in that game I'd bet at least the pot. Maybe my stack with the right feeling about my opponents.

The paired board on the river would probably make me check behind because only God or David Sklansky knows what they're gonna show you.

[gol4pro]

Both called river.

One showed K9o for the rivered boat.

I felt retarded.

[ QUOTE ]
These 2 guys were probably the worst donks I've ever met in my entire life. Trust me-- they saw every river.

I think my turn bet sucked... probably should have either pushed or overbet... what do you think?

stacks 200$, 1/2 6 max.

I raise Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] on button to 8$, donks call in SB,BB. pot 25

Flop K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
-- check, check, I value bet 12$ (for my draw), 2 calls

Pot 60
Turn 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
-- check, check, i bet 45, call, call

pot 195
River 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]-- Check, check, i bet 55, call, call

[/ QUOTE ]

I bet this flop, but for different reasons. I would probably bet more than half the pot though.

On the turn with two callers, even donks, you need to start punishing weaker holding and draws--you have the nuts.

Pot the river.

[Publos Nemesis]

You caught good on the turn. Make them pay. As it was, you played the hand like a fish and didn't get paid off as well as you could have.....