A Question about SSH and raising preflop...

[djhoneybear]

So I've read SSH about four times and have really worked on improving my game. I've been playing preflop exactly as the book recommends but realize that there are a few recommendations I don't understand (but still follow). Hoping to move beyond being a mindless zombie (although a winning player) - I am wondering if anyone can explain the following couple of suggestions.

In a loose game from late position SSH recommends raising with 88, A9s, A8s and K9s. My personal experience playing in these kind of games is that players often limp with AJ, AT, KT and KJ (some players limp with AQ and KQ too). All of these hands have the potential to dominate several of the holdings you are raising with. I just don't see this as profitable.

Raising with 88 from last position with 5 limpers (as SSH defines loose games)seems even more crazy. You aren't going to reduce the size of the field and unless you spike an 8 on the flop this play will cost you money.

Several of these hands are also recommended as raising hands in a tight game which seems even more crazy.

Help me wrap my brain around these recommendations.

[bozlax]

Grab a copy of PokerStove and play with it in between hands. Just to hit one of your questions, according to 'stove, 88 has a 54-46 equity advantage over a single opponent holding "...AJ, AT, KT and KJ (some players limp with AQ and KQ too)." So, you're raising to isolate the opponent with one of these holdings, to take advantage of the small edge that you have.

Right, o great brains?

[djhoneybear]

Thanks for the reply. However this isn't exactly my confusion. I understand raising to isolate a single opponent. However this recommendation comes in the "Late Position Loose Game" catagory. Loose games are defined by having 6-8 players to the flop. Assuming you are on the button and that generally the blinds will complete for a single bet you need 5 limpers ahead of you to qualify for a loose game. Certainly your pot equity even against 6-8 random hands isn't that strong. Where is the advantage in raising.

This is information I have gathered from studying the charts in SSH. However in other sections they recommend playing 99, 88 and 77 cheaply for one bet or call a raise if the pot is multiway. They also state that these hands play best short handed. I firmly agree with the statements in the other sections of the book but not with the recommendation to raise. Who makes this play?

[Bodhi]

Pocket pairs play well short handed and multiway. Of course, that usually means you need to hit a set. But if there are a whole lot of people limping in up front, and you have 88, raising is for two reasons: you have an edge in pot equity, and you have position. You won't knock many people out, but you still make money.

[Big Folder]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the reply. However this isn't exactly my confusion. I understand raising to isolate a single opponent. However this recommendation comes in the "Late Position Loose Game" catagory. Loose games are defined by having 6-8 players to the flop. Assuming you are on the button and that generally the blinds will complete for a single bet you need 5 limpers ahead of you to qualify for a loose game. Certainly your pot equity even against 6-8 random hands isn't that strong. Where is the advantage in raising.

[/ QUOTE ]

Raising here is like raising on the button with AK, nobody who already limped is going to drop out but its for value because you have a premium holding.
Raising 88 under this same logic makes sense in my book, in fact it might be more valuable since the times you hit your set you're going to take down a monster the majority of the time. But you've already addressed that this may be the only way to win with a medium pp, but thats not true.

In such a large field you will likely have to hit a set to win but sometimes you will win if the flop is below your 8s and you are able to drive enough opponents out ont he flop that 1 overcard might not sink you. In fact 88 isn't that much different from TT. Of course its weaker but TT, hell even JJ suffers from the same problem as 88, overcards will likely come but you still raise pf to push your equity edge. Often you will raise to see two overcards come and fold on the flop, but this again is like the AK example. You always raise AK but the majority of the time you'll just make overcards. If you miss the flop you might end up folding AK depending on the action, but that doesn't mean the pfr wasn't the right move.
[ QUOTE ]

This is information I have gathered from studying the charts in SSH. However in other sections they recommend playing 99, 88 and 77 cheaply for one bet or call a raise if the pot is multiway. They also state that these hands play best short handed. I firmly agree with the statements in the other sections of the book but not with the recommendation to raise. Who makes this play?

[/ QUOTE ]

Same thing. yes medium pockets play best short handed, short handed is when they'll win the majority of the time, but playing them with a large field is immensly profitable when you hit your set. The book recommends cold-calling pf with any pockets if 1-2 have already cold called and if its likely to be 5 or more seeing the flop( i believe) This isn't enough to cover the immediate odds of hitting your set(it will only come 12% of the time). But with a small potential to win unimproved coupled with the massively profitable times you hit a set this play is correct.

for your other question: You'd play 88 and 77 cheaply for 1 bet in early position, you limp and hope it becomes multiway. 99 though is strong enough to raise utg I believe.

I hope this helped somewhat, but someone might have to correct me on some things since I'm learning myself [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]. Peace

[olavfo]

You've gotten some very good answers already, but I just want to shoot in a comment:

If there are more than 7 limpers before you, remember that the odds of flopping a set is 7.5 : 1, so you could argue that a raise would be purely for value in this case.

In addition, the pair will sometimes also win unimproved of course.

olavfo