The Perfect Turn - or is it?

tabish · #1 08-29-2004, 11:50 PM

Just played this hand... what would you guys do at this point?

Paradise Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (9 handed)

Hero ($40.90)
UTG+1 ($24.30)
MP1 ($21.40)
MP2 ($18.38)
MP3 ($19.80)
CO ($54.40)
Button ($25.50)
SB ($24.50)
BB ($25.75)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. MP2 posts a blind of $0.25. SB posts a blind of $0.10.
Hero raises to $1, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 (poster) calls $0.75, MP3 calls $1, CO calls $1, Button calls $1, SB (poster) folds, BB folds.

Flop: ($5.35) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero bets $5, MP2 folds, MP3 calls $5, CO raises to $10, Button folds, Hero calls $5, MP3 calls $5.

Turn: ($35.35) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets $5, MP3 raises to $8.8 (all-in), Action to hero...

AZK · #2 08-30-2004, 01:01 AM

Looks like MP3 just caught his flush. CO should be aware of this, I doubt he would come over the top, since the pot is big and it's only another $3 to you from MP3's $8 all-in, I'd call and hope to fill up on the river. At this point what do you put CO on? A smaller set? Do you know anything about these players? Could both CO and MP3 have flushes? It seems highly unlikely that both players have you beat right now...

I might have even put in a LARGE reraise on the flop making it incorrect for any flush draw to call. Your hand should be good on the flop more times than someone calling with T8 and flopping a straight...

tabish · #3 08-30-2004, 01:48 AM

I don't have much of a read on these players - I had only been at the table a few orbits, and a few hands before, I had doubled up my buy-in with aces.

My read of the action on the flop was that CO had a fairly strong made hand - quite possibly a set, maybe two pair (though I find a call from J9 against a raise unlikely). MP3 was quite possibly on a flush draw or maybe held a hand like AJ or KJ. I considered a big re-raise on the flop, but I was afraid I was going to be paying off a set - and CO had me covered. So I called (maybe a bad move).

On the turn, MP3's re-raise definitely said to me that he's got a flush - or (though unlikely) a naked ace of spades. For $3 more, it was definitely worth calling because of my outs to a full house.

My question now is, what do I do against CO? If he's got a set, another spade on the river could kill his action (or give him a flush to beat me). I'm probably an underdog for the main pot at this point, but I could have a chance to turn this into a profitable hand.

me454555 · #4 08-30-2004, 03:09 AM

It doesn't matter whether or not hes got the flush. he's all in and you've got the odds to make this call and go for the fh.

tabish · #5 08-30-2004, 11:53 AM

Well, what I ended up doing here is pushing. My feeling was that CO was on a smaller set, and on the turn was my best opportunity... if he was indeed on a set, he'd want to stay in this big pot for his full house outs, and if the river didn't pair the board, it's unlikely that he'd call a bet there.

What do you guy think of that logic?

The results, of course, were horrendous. Both MP3 and CO played relatively trashy hands to my raise, and somehow both of them got paid off. The next time I have KK, though, I hope they call with these same hands. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Turn: ($35.35) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets $5, MP3 raises to $8.80, Hero raises to $33.70, CO calls $24.90.

River: ($90.15) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)

Final Pot: $90.15

Results in white below: 
Hero shows Kh Kc (three of a kind, kings).
MP3 shows 7s As (flush, ace high).
CO shows Ts 8s (flush, king high).
Outcome: MP3 wins $58.75, net +$38.95. CO wins $42.20, net +$1.30.

Bulldog · #6 08-30-2004, 03:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Just played this hand... what would you guys do at this point?

Turn: ($35.35) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets $5, MP3 raises to $8.8 (all-in), Action to hero...

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure what happened to CO's turn to bet on the turn, so I'm guessing CO folded.

Even if MP3 has his hand face up showing the nut flush, you call. Do you understand why?

tabish · #7 08-30-2004, 03:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure what happened to CO's turn to bet on the turn, so I'm guessing CO folded.

Even if MP3 has his hand face up showing the nut flush, you call. Do you understand why?

[/ QUOTE ]
Whoops. I don't have the hand history email in front of me right now, but I think he called. He was certainly still in the hand, because he went on to take the rest of my chips.

And yes, I do understand that I have to call MP3's raise, since I'm getting great odds on my draw. It's 4.4:1 that I make a full house or quads on the river and the pot is paying me 15:1 on the $3 call.

So clearly a fold is incorrect - I want to see the river. My question is whether or not I should have raised against CO at this point.

Bulldog · #8 08-30-2004, 04:35 PM

I still don't understand. After MP3 moves in over the top of you, the action goes to CO next, not back to you. If he folds, you call MP3's all in.

He raised the flop, so I'm not putting him on a flush draw at that point, although depending on your read, you might. It's pretty hard to put him on T8, which he was holding for the nut straight, and he just happened to be freerolling on the flush. Regardless, I don't think he's on a flush draw. So on the turn, if he just called, I'd be inclined to push in. You may eliminate him and just win a $3.80 side pot. Or he might have a lower set and will pay you off. A more conserative play would be to just call as well, and take a cheap chance at catching the top boat.

Now if he reraises all in before the action comes to you, you'll have a tough decision. It sure is hard to lay down the top set, but there are a few hands you can put him on that could beat you. QT is a possibility (but again, not likely just like T8 wasn't likely with the preflop raise) but the real possibility is that he just made the nut flush. I'd call in your spot, assuming that the CO pushed in ahead of you, but you could fold here if you have a pretty good read on the CO.

I don't see a way that you don't get broke on this hand. At many games, your preflop raise would've been just right. In this game, maybe a bigger preflop raise is called for.

tabish · #9 08-30-2004, 05:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I still don't understand. After MP3 moves in over the top of you, the action goes to CO next, not back to you. If he folds, you call MP3's all in.

[/ QUOTE ]
CO called MP3's bet, and then action went to me. My apologies, it looks like I accidentally deleted that in my original post. For some reason, my post with the results is also missing CO's call - maybe the hand converter screwed it up.

[ QUOTE ]
So on the turn, if he just called, I'd be inclined to push in.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is exactly what I did. I'm wondering what ya'll think of this move.

Like I mentioned, I figured CO for a smaller set given his strength on the flop. I thought a while before pushing - it seemed desirable to see if the river gave me a full house, but if it was set vs set, I felt I had a better chance of getting paid off if I pushed on the turn.