Overly aggressive with pocket deuces ?

#1 10-01-2005, 09:10 PM

I have $100 at this table, CO has about $300, next closest stack is about $60.

CO hasn't been at the table long but appears to be somewhat LAG, but not maniacal in either respect; just a little of both. I know nothing about MP1 nor the BB; haven't been involved in a hand with either, mainly because I have been mostly TAG.

The CO and I, to this point, had not had a confrontation, that I can remember. Table was basically average with a few callers on the end here and there making for some interesting showdowns, but nothing spectacular.

Cryptologic 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (10 handed) link

Preflop: Hero is SB with 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
3 folds, MP1 calls, 2 folds, CO calls, 1 folds, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4.00 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets, BB folds, MP1 calls, CO calls.

Sometimes you need to bet on the cheap street to see if anyone is going to play back at you, right? Normally I have a hard time betting out like this (read: I am not sure if it is long term -EV or maybe it is ok sometimes?) with the smallest possible pocket, but it just "felt" like this was one of those hands where I could get away with it and possibly have the best hand (at this point). Considering only one player limped in at mid pos, and the CO had played some rags on occasion, esp in late pos, and the BB, well; the BB is the BB! So, at this point, noone has played back and I am pretty sure I have the best hand - not like anyone here would have reason to slow play. Oh, and, as some of you are quick to point out, all three of my opponents have *dramatic pause* two cards! Can you believe that!?

Turn: (3.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, MP1 folds, CO calls.

I had been a tiny bit concerned about a flush on the flop, and here is another possible four flush on the turn, but I figure there is no way the CO called my bet on the flop with just a backdoor flush draw. I guess anything is possible but I can't imagine anyone with a $300 stack at this table calling me with terrible odds like that. I was also hoping my bet would make the big stack fold, but she stayed in for the river.

River: (5.50 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero calls.

My nightmare come true! Actually, I wasn't really concerned at this point, as I mentioned at the turn, I can't imagine the CO chasing a backdoor flush, but I check here to induce a bet, and when the bet comes, I decide it is better to not risk pushing a re-raise, so a mere call seems in order, aye?

Final Pot: 7.50 BB.
Results in white below:
CO has Kh 9d (High Card Ace)
Hero has 2c 2h (A Pair of Twos, Ace high)
Hero wins 7.15 BB.


I thought about posting this in stages but it really wasn't about the result as much as whether or not anyone thinks I was too aggressive... Hindsight is 20/20 and in this case it didn't give me enough info...

milesdyson · #2 10-01-2005, 09:27 PM

why did you call the river?

#3 10-01-2005, 09:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
why did you call the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because I figured the CO was bluffing.

Wouldn't you? Or maybe a better question is, do you never call in this situation? I would think you have to sometimes, even if you think you are beaten, just so your opponents don't run all over you if they are bluffing, right?

Greg J · #4 10-01-2005, 09:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I have $100 at this table, CO has about $300, next closest stack is about $60.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is not as pertanent as at a NL table. It's not totally irrelevant either, but as long as you have 12.5 bbs you are fine.

On the flop, a check fold line is usually the way to go. Betting into 3 players with essentially no hand is not a great bankroll builder. You didn't hit your set. Next hand.

#5 10-01-2005, 09:42 PM

As far as the river call goes:

I should add that I was willing to pay one bet to see if I was right and to see if they were bluffing. Either way, I would learn something about this player, right?

Am I wrong in my thinking ? Is it not ok to once in a while test your opponents?

And to take it a step further, since I am just now reading about game theory and bluffing, or defeating bluffs, does this not apply to this situation? Or did I misinterpret something?

#6 10-01-2005, 09:46 PM

I'll play 22 for set value. I can't call this river bet as people constantly call to the river with ace rag at the micros.

If people want to bluff to take pots at these limits then they can take them, i don't see it working often aside from stealing blinds when its folded to you and you have the tight passives in the blinds.

milesdyson · #7 10-01-2005, 09:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
As far as the river call goes:

I should add that I was willing to pay one bet to see if I was right and to see if they were bluffing. Either way, I would learn something about this player, right?

[/ QUOTE ]
you can learn watching him play against the other guys for free. check calling this river is like a 1 BB mistake.

honestly you're overthinking this hand immensely. the flop bet is bad because the odds that you have the best hand here (and the odds that you actually maintain the best hand by the river) are very slim. this is a good time for some poker stove numbers, and here they are (stopped early, but you get the point):

68,139,540 games 56.641 secs 1,203,007 games/sec

Board: 3h 6h Jc

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 29.7834 % [ 00.28 00.02 ] { random }
Hand 2: 26.7658 % [ 00.25 00.02 ] { random }
Hand 3: 32.5527 % [ 00.31 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 4: 10.8981 % [ 00.11 00.00 ] { 2h2c }

#8 10-01-2005, 10:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have $100 at this table, CO has about $300, next closest stack is about $60.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is not as pertanent as at a NL table. It's not totally irrelevant either, but as long as you have 12.5 bbs you are fine.

On the flop, a check fold line is usually the way to go. Betting into 3 players with essentially no hand is not a great bankroll builder. You didn't hit your set. Next hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

About the stack size, understood - thought it was at least worth mentioning.

As far as the bet goes, are you saying you absolutely never bet this kind of hand in this type of situation, period?

I find that hard to believe, but if you can tell me that is the way it is, that you always check-fold this type of hand if you don't make your set, I will (try to) believe you.

I did mention in the original post that I normally have a hard time betting this kind of hand, and with good reason. What I meant was that I don't usually do this, this is an exception to the rule. Usually it is no set, no bet - but is there absolutely no time you would ever do this? Your response seemed to be so automatic in that you would never ever make this type of move, but isn't a player supposed to change up once in a while?

I also think about what this could do for my table image.

It shows that I am not afraid to bet the worse possible pair, it shows that I am not afraid to call a possible bluff on the river, it shows that I am not afraid...

Now, if they all believe that, the few bets it cost me on this hand (in which noone raised me) could lead to a lot of extra calls when I do have the best hand? I mean, maybe most people won't notice, but maybe a couple will, and maybe those couple will give me more action now because they think I am pumping the pot with pocket deuces.

Isn't that what a poker player is supposed to strive for? I see it as giving me at least partial control of the table.

Am I crazy? Or perhaps just unorthodox?

Maybe I should post at the beginning of these types of hands *this is an exception, not the rule* ?

milesdyson · #9 10-01-2005, 10:20 PM

verbose. it would be a great service to others (and yourself) if you tried to be more concise in your posts. a lot of people won't read them and you'll get less discussion, which kind of seems counterintuitive since you're putting in so much effort to type such long responses. edit: and i know the whole thing about you typing 60 words per minute and typing them as fast as you think them.

aaand back to the hand: the bets you lose playing the nut low pair like this outweigh the bets you'll gain in the future because people didn't even watch the hand to see what you showed down. and for a lovely poker generalization, if you check folded every 4-way flop when you held an underpair to every board card, it wouldn't be bad.

irishpint · #10 10-01-2005, 10:42 PM

this hand is complete spewage. you're lucky to be the second biggest fish at this table.