Bring in, Ante Discussion..

[BeerMoney]

I'd like to discuss how the bring in/ante size affects the texture of a game.

As far as I know, the largest bring in in relation to a small bet is 1/2 the small bet (PP 2/4 and lower). The smallest bring in I know of is 1/4 the small bet. (PP 20/40.) (From what I remember, in some parts of the book i think 7CSFAP speaks of a 1/5 BI.)

First, I'd like to discuss, how the bring in size changes the structure of a game.. For example, at 5/10, the bring in is $2, or .4 small bets. Would this lead to a tighter or looser game? Vintage_Sara says that it leads to a looser game, as there is more $$ in the pot once the bring in throws his $2 in. But, at the same time, it costs more to limp and it will be harder to steal, although a steal doesn't have to be as successful as often as in a 1/4 structure. Also, after a player has limped at 5/10 with a reasonable hand, it would most likely be correct to call a completion, but that is not true with the 1/4 BI structure. So, while it is cheaper to limp, and see a fourth card at 20/40, is also correct to fold to a completion.. Which will create more action? Obviously the 20/40 game is going to have the better players, and therefore the pots aren't going t be as big, but if you gave the 5/10 players a $1.25 bring in, how would that change the game? Would it be tighter, or would there be more limping, and thus more action later on? Doesn't a smaller limp increase action?? I remember playing at 3/6 where the limp was $1 and $200 pots were not unusual at all. (But, 3/6 does not have the same proportional ante.)

What is the correct strategy for winning $$. (Both structures have the same ante size proprtionally.)

So, how do the different structures, change the looseness/tightness and aggressiveness/passiveness?

Consider a 10/20 game.. What ante would create the loosest game? A bring in of $.01 or $5.00, or somewhere in the middle? (Or , even consider a bring in of $9.90

Ante Size.

Well, the first thing TOP tells us is that poker is a battle for the antes. ( I would argue some people would still play without an ante.) So, we learn that as the ante increases, we should be more willing to enter pots. However, as those antes increase, our opponents will also be playing more pots, thus making the required strength of the hand we show down even stronger. So, as we increase the # of hands we play, we are going to increase the # of crummy hands that are played. As the wise AndyB once said "You're still going to have to showdown the best hand.." Also, as the ante size is increased, hands are more likely to make it showdown, thus decreasing the EFFECTIVE odds of playing a hand, especially a marginal hand.

Why is it the 3/6, 15/30 structures seem to work so well? Why is the combination of the reasonable, yet not too small ante, combined with the 1/3 limp so favorable?

[mscags]

This is interesting. I'm going to have to contemplate for a while on it. I think a combination of about a 1/6-1/8 ante creates a pretty loose game. Also I think a lower Bring In encourages more limping like you said but also discourages people to call once it is completed because of how much more. In the 10-20 game it isn't that uncommon to see a couple of limpers and someone completes and then only one person calls the completion. However like you said in the 5-10 and 3-6 game once people limp they are almost certain to call the completion. I think a bigger BI in general makes for more action because once it is brought in there is more money in the pot like you said to fight over. I think the combination of an ante of about 1-6 or 1-8 and about 1/3 or 2/5 BI creates a pretty loose game. I'll think about it some more and see if I can come up with a real solid reason why. Good thread btw.

[vintage_sara]

It is cheaper to limp in a 20-40 game but it doesn't mean you should do it unless the game is passive. Don't toss your $5 away if you are not willing or ready to call a completion or are expecting a mulitway pot, i.e. you have a flush draw (not some stupid straight draw). Good players typically do not make straights unless they back into them.

I can't stress enough how important tight play is in a tightly structured game. The PP $20-40 structure means you can wait and wait and wait. Believe me. I hope Mike Emery pipes in here because I think he will tell you that I probably played less hands in the 20-40 than I do in 5-10. I absolutely believe that I played correctly according to the structure. Just because you have the skill to play more more marginal hands, ie. you won't get too stupid and when you become good you get value out of it, doesn't mean you should do it. Play the structure first, play the players second.


When they talk about poker being a fight for the antes. They are talking about more about loosely structured games. Playing well means, playing correctly according to the structure as well as playing appropriate to the game you are in...changing up hand selections, bets etc, depending on how the game is playing.

Now what I said about limping in 5-10 game is: you are more correct to call for a completion. That doesn't mean you are absolutely correct. It should also mean that if you limp early you should be prepared to call a completion but we're expecting to get in cheap or were looking for a multiway pot, meaning that you have a flush draw, have a pair with a suited connector (live straight, flush, pair cards) or suited live ace kicker and the game is passive. You get the idea, it's hard to list all the factors.

So many players talk about how tight they play. Well it really can't be that true because quite frankly I don't play against very many tight players. Tight is "perception." I think the majority of people do not play tight enough or really have an objective view of how tight they are playing.

I might have taken this thread on a tangent but I think it is important. For anyone who really wants to be good some day, I recommend stepping back and seeing if you can play ABC poker. Straight up, solid with out any monkey business for at least 6 months. Don't worry about ante stealing and the like. Just play like a rock. Then add some color to your game and see how these affect your results. Moves have so little value on line and perhaps this little experiment might help you see it.

[bygmesterf]

[ QUOTE ]
I might have taken this thread on a tangent but I think it is important. For anyone who really wants to be good some day, I recommend stepping back and seeing if you can play ABC poker. Straight up, solid with out any monkey business for at least 6 months. Don't worry about ante stealing and the like. Just play like a rock. Then add some color to your game and see how these affect your results. Moves have so little value on line and perhaps this little experiment might help you see it.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's almost scary how that is, If you get used to playing in nice rolling 15/30 or B&M 20/40 and then you come to party, and all of a sudden your bag of tricks isn't very usefull, since this is boring tightly structured game.

It's funny, but when I play stud hi online, I prefer to play in the 3/6 games where you can really open up the throttle compared to the bigger games.

[sexdrugsmoney]

Due to the high ante structure of .5/1 Party (the ante is the same size as the BI) should you play anything that is "live" or remain tight?

[vintage_sara]

Ugh! If your tendency is to play tight and your goal is to win, then this is not the game for you. Bottomline, this poor structure takes the edge away from good solid play. I would not recommend playing this game. If you are playing for fun...what the hell...call anything.

Seriously, if you must play this game and you still want to win then the most important decision street actually becomes fifth street rather than third street. Managing the pot size becomes very important in the early streets (try to keep it smaller) as raises on third have very little value unless you are rolled up. I would go to war with this on every hand on third if the table is loose, which I assume most are. Hand selection also becomes key. Pairs have less value unless they are also suited and connected with primary and secondary straight cards, pair cards and flush cards live. I would limp more with big pairs that I think are the best and reraise if someone completes coming in trying to get it heads up if that's possible, I might even wait to do it on fifth if the position falls right. I would check my big pairs when other catch suited or connected on 4th religiously. Your drawing hands increase in value. Player looser but less aggressive is I guess what I am saying unless you have a very live draw or a made hand. Hope that helps!

Remember, my first recommendation don't play this game. Save your money and get a bankroll to play in a better structure.

[vintage_sara]

I hear ya. My game online is a bit different than my game in a casino, but not too much different.

One thing that is different for sure is that I call more on the river than I did when I would play B&M.

[sexdrugsmoney]

Sara, what si the minimum level you recommend for Party?

[BeerMoney]

Sara,

Thanks a lot. That made a lot of sense.

IBT.

[Jeffage]

Basically, some general comments on this. The Party 20-40 structure SUCKS. It makes rock tight play correct and makes the game boring as well as too hard on the fish. That's why the games are often bad. A $3 ante at 20-40 is standard at B&M for 20-40 and is correct. It actually requires advanced play, encourages action games and gives the truly sharp player an even bigger longterm money expectation b/c games will have bigger action.

10-20 and below are tightly structured games. Much of what S&M have written on stud games DON'T apply to these levels. Note that the typical 10-20 game has a $1 ante, 15-30 has a $2 ante, 20-40 has a $3 ante, 30-60 has a $5 ante, 75-150 has a $15 ante. Based on the ante for the 10-20, a tightly structured 75 game would have a $7.50 ante. That game would suck and blow...and die out. People would learn to play tight as hell, the game would have less action. So yes, less variance for the pros, but crappy earns in the longrun. Just some thoughts.

All games 10-20 and below are less about knocking out opponents than about trapping them and require much less advanced play. This isn't snobbery based on money wagered, but just reality based on structure.

Jeff