Bet/Bet/Check-raise line

SlantNGo · #1 10-29-2005, 01:37 AM

Villain was 54/20, and had a very high river AF. However, I suspect that it was more due to seeing less showdowns than usual for a LAG than to heavy betting and raising. My thinking here is that a C/R will extract 2 bets out of him when he's got a lower PP and get at least the same 1, if not 2 bets out of him when he's holding UI overcards. However, that Jack played right into one of the hands he's likely to have IMO (JJ), but I didn't realize this until after the fact. How do you like the play against this type of opponent given this board? What if the river was a blank? (i.e. deuce or a card pairing the board).

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
Hero raises, 1 fold, MP1 3-bets, 5 folds, Hero caps, MP1 calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP1 calls.

Turn: (5.75 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP1 calls.

River: (7.75 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets, Hero raises

#2 10-29-2005, 01:55 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Villain was 54/20, and had a very high river AF. However, I suspect that it was more due to seeing less showdowns than usual for a LAG than to heavy betting and raising. My thinking here is that a C/R will extract 2 bets out of him when he's got a lower PP and get at least the same 1, if not 2 bets out of him when he's holding UI overcards. However, that Jack played right into one of the hands he's likely to have IMO (JJ), but I didn't realize this until after the fact. How do you like the play against this type of opponent given this board? What if the river was a blank? (i.e. deuce or a card pairing the board).

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
Hero raises, 1 fold, MP1 3-bets, 5 folds, Hero caps, MP1 calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP1 calls.

Turn: (5.75 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP1 calls.

River: (7.75 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets, Hero raises

[/ QUOTE ]

If he is 50/20 I don't think JJ represents a huge portion of his range here. I like it a lot.

aces_dad · #3 10-29-2005, 02:11 AM

This line will work well vs the laggy river player you describe. A better player will be able to check behind but these type of players love to bet when sensing weakness.

20% PFR is more likely to have AJ than JJ and if he has J's you're probably getting raised on the river anyway. I like your line against this villian as it gets a bet from lower PP's and perhaps UI overs like AK.

SoftcoreRevolt · #4 10-29-2005, 02:17 AM

I [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] This line. Perfect given the read.

yellowjack · #5 10-29-2005, 05:10 AM

I prefer multitabling to having this great a read. If this is not from observation, do you have aggression on each street being displayed?

That aside, nice play.

#6 10-29-2005, 06:53 AM

Great play. I like it w any card but an Ace. If he's folding a lot of rivers, may as well give him a chance to bet.

As you say, if he has a lower pp, he's likely to call anyway. This gives you a chance at 2BB.

If he's playing AT, AQ, AK and he checks behind, it's as if he folded to your bet.

If you bet and he has a Jack, you'd call and end up with the same 2BB.

If you cr and he has a JJ, you can fold to a reraise.

If an Ace comes on the river, I'd probably bet-fold if you're confident of your read.

Stealthy · #7 10-29-2005, 08:09 AM

I like it! I have done this on the turn a few times against the sort of player you described but not the river. Definately something I will be trying. Also if you have the river check-raise in your arsenal (which I currently do not!) you may win yourself a few free showdowns OOP when you want one if an observant player is scared of the check-raise having seen it earlier.

#8 10-29-2005, 09:19 AM

*grunch*
I think you have to bet the river.

Stealthy · #9 10-29-2005, 11:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
*grunch*
I think you have to bet the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? If he always bets if checked to but would fold a missed hand then why not let him take a stab at it? The only real risk if if he has backed into a 2 pair or better that has you beat then you open yourself up to an expensive 3 bet. But if your are confident that he will not only bet, but that he will call your raise with an inferior hand then it would appear to be a good stragegy to mix up your game a little. Even if he folds to the check-raise you still win an extra BB as he was likely to have folded to a river lead.

Of course if you cannot be almost certain that your opponent will bet then you should always lead yourself.

#10 10-29-2005, 12:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
*grunch*
I think you have to bet the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? If he always bets if checked to but would fold a missed hand then why not let him take a stab at it? The only real risk if if he has backed into a 2 pair or better that has you beat then you open yourself up to an expensive 3 bet. But if your are confident that he will not only bet, but that he will call your raise with an inferior hand then it would appear to be a good stragegy to mix up your game a little. Even if he folds to the check-raise you still win an extra BB as he was likely to have folded to a river lead.

Of course if you cannot be almost certain that your opponent will bet then you should always lead yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]

almost certain?

assuming you have him beat and he aint 3betting or bet/folding... you only need for him to bet at you 51% for this play to be +ev in comparison to leading....

(.49 * 0 + .51 * 2) > 1