Final Table Blunder??

[davidross]

Well I finally made another final table last night in the EMpire 10K guaranteed $50 event. It was certainly the strangest tournament I've ever played. I lost 70% of my chips on the 4th hand when my opponent spiked his kicker on the river. But before the round was over I had got myself back to 2000 chips. In the middle rounds back to back sets got me a huge stack and I cruised into the money (30 places paid) THen Iwent on a roller coaster ride where I would move up to top 3 in chips, then run into AA on back to back hands. THen I doubled again with AQ against KK, and then lost with AK to JJ. Every time I ran into the big pair I had chips though and I kept surviving. I played a very cautious final table and was 1st or 2nd in chips the whole time. Because I was playing so tight I was able to pick up blinds at will and maintain my position, but we took over na hour to get down to 6 people. Everyone was pretty tight, and the small stack kept winning the showdown hands.

Anyway with 6 people left I was on the button with Qs Js. Blinds were 4K and 8K. THe cutoff limped in front of me with 50K in chips, I had 75K. THe SB folded and the BB(21K) checked. THe flop came Kc Ts 5c.

THey both checked to me. THe CO limp was unusual, there had been some limping from the blinds, but not in front of them at all. I was a little suspicious, but the 28K in the pot sure looked good to me, and very few of my bets had been called. Instead of taking the free cars I decided to bet and maybe take it down there, and if not, probably get the free card on the turn. I had to decide how much to bet though. I decided on 12K. THe BB folded and after a real long think, the CO raised it to 30K. Ruh ROh. Now I'm stuck. 18K to call a 70K pot. I called. Turn was 7s giving me a lot more outs. He pushed his last 18K in and I had to call. River didn't help me and he turned over a set of Kings. I was down to 20K and went out against another KK hand shortly after in 4th place.

I think my calls were correct on the trurn and river, but the flop bluff cost me big time. If I check that flop I probably get a price to see the river anyway, but escape with a lot more chips.

[jslag]

David,

I agree with your analysis. You need to check behind on that flop and take the free card.

If you check the flop, then when you pick up some more outs on the turn you may be able to call a bet from the CO (Villain). He may not bet too big since he's slow-playing and it was checked through.

You seem to be making a lot of final tables lately, congrats on your streak... you'll get the next win soon I'm sure.

J.

[Tyler Durden]

I fold preflop every time.

You don't want to invest that many chips w/ a drawing hand late in the tourney when chips mean so much. The CO openlimp should set off some warning bells if he hasn't done it yet.

[Nick B.]

I wish I hadn't seen the results, but... I think I would be more likely to do this with a pair of tens than with a good draw like you have. This board (KTx) is likely to have hit one of your opponents and your hand really doesn't have any showdown value. I think unless you are prepared to push in with Q high on the turn, a check on the flop is better.
This way you will keep the pot smaller and will probably not be forced to go all in (Survival is key). Also if you hit your draw you might get somebody to bet into you.

[fnord_too]

That is a tough spot on the flop. I think with the stacks so short taking the free card is probably correct with two opponents and a board that has a good chance of hitting the CO. A 12K bet at at 28K pot is really iffy. I don't know how much to bet there, but 21k sounds better (in that the BB must call for all his chips, and it is 3/4 of the pot) but then you are pot committed. 12k here sais you have a monster or nothing usually, you limped preflop so that would probably mean 55, KT, or a bluff. A bigger bet to me would say draw or TP, both of which is certainly believable. I think this is a spot where you should just take the free card.

If you did take the free card, I think you have a tough decision on the turn no matter what happens before you act. If checked to, how can you not semi-bluff here? If CO makes a small bet, same question. If CO pushes you can probably fold, but with a pottish sized bet you are going to be hard pressed to fold 15-21 outs.

Usually, I fold this pre flop. At this stage I like pushing preflop or getting out of the way. With a small pair, I may call because they are generally easy to play post flop, but JQs can be real trouble.

[davidross]

Actually it was my first final table in a while, but I did have an 11th and 14th in the last week, so it's been going a little better.

I got so caught up in being the big stack bully I guess I got carried away.

[davidross]

I can't see folding this Tyler. I was the chip leader and play was very tight. I had won several pots post-flop with nothing, and if the limper had AK and missed I think I could have taken it with a flop bet. I just got carried away on the flop a little.

[davidross]

Nick,

You made the correct analysis much more easily than I did. I got caught up in just stealing the pot right there, and getting to see the river for free, that I hadn't really considered the check-raise. It's too bad, I had been playing pretty well for the past couple of hours against some real bad luck. Oh well, no one said it was supposed to be easy.

[zaxx19]

I actually aggree with folding preflop. That limp is way suspicious to me and i dont wanna see rag rag Queen flop and it get checked to me with QJ. Im also not trying to move in on a draw at that point in a tourney if i dont have to. Post flop I actually like your play but then again I usually dont take the freecard with postion and a good draw...just generally how I play.

[davidross]

If I hadn't been the chip leader I think I would have folded too. I felt like I had a real chance to take it away post-flop, but I guess this is exactly why it is hard to play post flop.

3 hands earlier the cutoff had limped from the SB with Kc 7c and I got a free play with Q5. Flop came Qc 8c 5c and I doubled him up there too.