Building big multiway pots in NL..

[AZK]

Recently I've been moving back and forth between NL and limit and I've found games where it's 6 limpers to me in LP. For the sake of changing it up every once in a while and for value, I will occasionally raise drawing hands like low PP or JTs to build a decent sized pot, this seems to work fine in limit but I haven't tried it in NL. I have a feeling this is one of those plays that will not work well in NL but I wanted to hear what others thought. I also imagine this would be a better play in deep stack NL compared to the Party structure.

So in a game with blinds of 2-5 NL, if there were 5 or 6 limpers to me in LP with a good hand (i.e. AKs, AA, KK etc..), I'd make it $80 to go or something of that nature, to cut down on my opponents and take control, but with a small pair or JTs, I'd more inclined to only raise it $20 and have 6 of us take a flop for $20....I realize this won't work since people will begin to realize what a raise means from me depending on how much I raise. Yet, I still feel like building a pot with a decent drawing hand at a table that is very loose preflop will increase the amount of money that drawing hands make in LP. Does this concept equally apply to both NL and limit? Or do people just come in for their standard raise regardless of their hand since limpers won't know whether the flop has hit you or not? If you wanted to build pots with drawing hands in LP could you just raise to $20 occassionally with powerhouse hands in order to avoid being read? Is all of this just a recipe for disaster? Should I stick to either limping or raising and not somewhere in between in the hopes of building a pot? Thoughts?

[AJo Go All In]

yeah i sometimes make a small raise after limpers with something like 66, 89s etc. observant players know what i'm doing, but i generally don't care.

[AZK]

So then won't they make a play at you pre-flop or on the flop? Since it's safe to say you have more speculative drawing hands then monster hands, if a certain % of the time you did the same thing with a monster hand than they wouldn't be able to play back at you as much, no?

[AJo Go All In]

might someone make a play at the pot preflop, sure, if this starts to happen then adjust accordingly.

make a play at me on the flop? i'm not sure i follow, we're talking about a multi-way situation where i'm trying to make a big hand and double up, not steal the pot with 7-high from 6 limpers.

[TStoneMBD]

if youre playing in a game filled with weak players who limp with garbage then raising with decent hands on the button punishes them for this. if you make a habit out of raising limpers you should try to conceal when you really do have a hand, but if you succeed at doing this you should do well in the long run.

[AZK]

Obviously. I'm playing in a game that is loose preflop but tightens up postflop...it's deepstack so players limp A LOT but play pretty well after the flop. What I'm saying is a raise with JTs from LP after 6 limpers is a much different raise than with AA...observant players will recognize that you are trying to build a pot with a drawing hand rather than playing with a monster and will play back at you. I was curious if people routinely build pots in NL the way you do in limit or if they just limp and hope to hit the flop...

[TStoneMBD]

i also play in a game where players play way too many hands preflop but play fairly well postflop. for me personally, building pots with hands near the button isnt one of my strong points so i try to avoid it. i think i end up leaking money by doing this. however, alot of players will play this way and it works well if done correctly.

[Zag]

[ QUOTE ]
What I'm saying is a raise with JTs from LP after 6 limpers is a much different raise than with AA...

[/ QUOTE ]

If you can't make these two raises look the same, then you have a big leak.

Of course, the preflop raise with JTs is only valuable if many hands at the table never reach a showdown. In other words, this must carry a fair bit of post-flop bluff equity to be a good play. But it is a great play, if it does. In all of the flops that include some big cards, you will have at least some kind of draw. Therefore, these become a semi-bluff opportunity, but the bluff portion is strongly backed up by your preflop raise.

[AZK]

I agree that the two bets need to look the same, but I feel much more comfortable putting in a hefty preflop raise with a strong hand vs a speculative drawing hand preflop. Additionally, If I have a strong hand facing a field of limpers and put in a large raise I'm looking to play the pot 3 handed or heads up. With JTs, I want to see it six ways, take advantage of my position and tie people to the pot. Putting in a huge raise just shoots yourself in the foot as your left with JTs against a small field. I realize that not all hands are showed down, and a decent sized raise preflop followed by a postflop pot sized bet should be more than enough to take down the pot, and if it's not I'm beat whether my hand is JTs or AA, but I still feel more comfortable putting a large percentage of my stack in play behind AA than I do behind JTs, hence the desire to make a pot building raise...

[cero_z]

Hi AZK,
[ QUOTE ]
What I'm saying is a raise with JTs from LP after 6 limpers is a much different raise than with AA...observant players will recognize that you are trying to build a pot with a drawing hand rather than playing with a monster and will play back at you.

[/ QUOTE ]

What you are describing is opportunity knocking! It would be great if your observant opponents started doing this, since you will now be able to win a pretty big pot with AA, etc., even though your opponents don't necessarily have much.

I think the reason you didn't think of this is that you're scared to "waste" AA, by making a risky (because it's small) raise pre-flop. If this is so, just don't sweat it anymore. Most of your profitable situations in this game come up post-flop, and any 2 cards will be your hand. AA is just another 2-card holding if a bunch of people see the flop cheaply. Take a chance with it, if some of these folks start playing back at you when you make "pot-building" raises.

This sounds a lot like the NL game I play in regularly.