First Hand : Big Pot

Hybrid_11 · #1 07-09-2005, 01:49 PM

Literally first hand of the table i posted blind in cutoff position so no reads on anybody. Im curious what your plan would be on the flop/turn.
The flop call was with the intention to raise any non-scary turn card. Right way to play this hand?

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $2.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, 2 folds, Hero (poster) raises, 1 fold, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, SB checks, BB checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (14 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6 players)

Turn: (7 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 calls, Hero raises

jb9 · #2 07-09-2005, 02:14 PM

The action on the flop seems to have merged with the preflop action, but I'm assuming everyone called UTG's bet.

I would raise the flop as you probably have the best hand and to hopefully get the blinds to fold.

The flop was good for you, but there are a lot of cards on the turn that could give someone a straight, flush, or higher pair. Flush draws won't fold for a flop raise, but gutshot straights and overcards might.

I would raise that turn and bet/raise any not too scary river (scary = heart, A, or T).

Moneyline · #3 07-09-2005, 02:17 PM

You may want to edit this post a bit to make it easier to read. Also, what happened to MP1? Anyway...

I think you played the hand very nicely.

Moneyline · #4 07-09-2005, 02:27 PM

Here's why I think raising the turn is better:

If hero's raises, his opponents are getting at least 9:1 to call (this is assuming MP1 saw the flop... he disappeared from the original hand). In fact, they'll probably get better than 9:1 because UTG and UTG+1 will probably call the raise, and a few other players may hang on with longshots because the pot is big. So a raise has +EV because your hand is probably best, but the raise isn't big enough to drive people out and it also has the effect of making the pot so big you'll tie other players on to their hand on the later streets. So I think a better move is to just call the flop since no one is folding anyway, and then raise the turn. If a blank comes on the turn, then you can raise. Now your opponents won't have the odds to suckout on you with a longshot, so if they choose to call it is at their own peril. IMO, this is an instance of giving up some small +EV on the flop in order to gain much larger +EV on a later street.

Just my opinion...

Hybrid_11 · #5 07-09-2005, 02:51 PM

yeah didnt notice the post, i cant edit it but heres it redone

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $2.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, 2 folds, Hero (poster) raises, 1 fold, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls $2 (All-In).

Flop: (12 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6 players, 1 all-in)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Turn: (8.50 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6 players, 1 all-in)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 calls, Hero raises

Hybrid_11 · #6 07-09-2005, 02:53 PM

mp1 was put all in pre-flop so he had no more action. Your previous statement was why i just called the flop. The board brought alot of draws and a flop raise would be close to meaningless so i called with the intention of raising a card that seemed like it would not complete anything. The two fell and so i raised the turn.

Hybrid_11 · #7 07-09-2005, 02:54 PM

If i am raising the flop what is the likelihood ill get a chance to raise the turn? Overcards and gutshots still have close odds to draw to their gutshots even with a raise on the flop.

jb9 · #8 07-09-2005, 03:07 PM

I see your point, although I think you could get the blinds to fold here, especially if they have Qx or Kx.

Do you give up on the turn if a scare card hits or just call down (or does it depend)?

Hybrid_11 · #9 07-09-2005, 03:11 PM

obviously it depends, a heart comes down i prob call down as long as its always only one to me, im prob raising the turn with any card thats lower then a jack and ill have to decided if it pairs the board other then the 2 given. Im unsure on if an overcard falls if its checked thru to me i prob bet if not prob call down.
So my raising cards are any non heart thats lower then a jack and id have to reevaluate the turn action if something else fell.

mute · #10 07-09-2005, 03:17 PM

I would raise the flop. You can still protect your hand from single overcards, pocketpairs and backdoor draws by raising here, but mainly I would raise for value.

Two things could happen on the turn, that makes me not want to wait.

First off, how sure can we be that UTG will bet again? If he doesn't, we will have had zero chance to protect, and would miss out on a lot of bets in the process.

Second a scarecard that doesn't help anybody may come on the turn, and again we miss out on a lot, if we just call down.