How do I control pot odds?

[The Student]

I just started playing NL and I'm still having trouble understanding how to make bets that give your opponents incorrect odds to call (depending on their possible range of hands). Here's a hand that I can use some help on. I just played it today at Lucky Chances outside of San Francisco. They have a $1/$1/$2 no limit game with a $100 max buy-in that is full of people that LAP it up and routinely pay off a pre-flop raiser with second pair.

Table dynamics - I've been playing for a couple of hours and have made very few PFRs due to a combination of very poor starting hands and being beaten into the pot by a LAG and a bully (with a huge chip stack) to my right. So this is probably only the 4th time I've raised pre-flop this session. 2 of the 3 opponents in this hand have been at the table as long as I have, 1 has not - so he has no reason to think I am super-tight. All 3 have me outchipped.

Here's the hand:

UTG+1, MP2, MP3 all limp in for $4, rest fold to me and I raise to $20 (basically a 5xBB because limpers have to come in for $4) - this is on the upper range of a standard opening raise. I have A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], blinds fold and limpers all call.

Flop - 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]10 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] pot = $84
All check to me.

I have $110 left after my PFR. So I have TPTK, and I think it's good for the moment. The limpers' range is very large since all PFRs are getting called at the table. So I think I'm up against 4/4 - 9/9 (stronger pairs would have raised PF before it was limped to me), and broadway cards (but not A/K or A/Q as those also would have raised PF). So right now, while it's possible I'm up against a set of 5s I'm not too worried about it and I think 10/J (for 2 pair) would have bet the flop. So I think my TPTK is good, but it's vulnerable to straight cards and overcards (K, Q).

How much do I have to bet to make sure that all straight draws (such as K/Q) and overcards are paying incorrect odds to call here?


Thanks in advance for the help,

ts -

[PoBoy321]

Bet about 3/4 pot, push a safe turn.

KQ has 8 straight outs against you - a 2.2:1 chance if he sees the next two cards, but also 6 over outs (assuming an A doesnt fall).

I used pokerstove and you are only a 53% favourite with this hand against KQ. But you are close to 76% with the range of hands you give. So I'd bet 1/2 - 3/4 pot, and put the rest in on a blank turn.

[orange]

[ QUOTE ]
Bet about 3/4 pot, push a safe turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this. Does anyone limp this PF? With all the limpers to me, I think limp is best...?

[The Student]

[ QUOTE ]
Bet about 3/4 pot, push a safe turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, if I bet $60 here into the $80 pot, he's getting $140:$60 = 2.3:1 pot odds. If I'm up against the OES straight draw (which is 2.17:1), shouldn't I be betting more here? I know it's only a marginal difference, but I just want to make sure I understand the concept of controlling pot odds correctly.

thanks for responding,
ts-

[The Student]

I would have limped with this if I hadn't been so tight previously. I figured since I hadn't raised for such a long time (45 minutes or so), I didn't want people to think I only played aces or I'd never get any action.

But yeah, I think a limp here is okay too.

ts-

[PoBoy321]

Those are his odds if he sees both cards. You want to cut down his odds of seeing the turn. That way, he's getting 2.3:1 when he's like 4:1 of completing on the turn. Then you push the safe turn so that he isn't getting the odds to call on the river.

[The Student]

Okay, this is the part I don't understand. Should I only be thinking of the price I'm charging him to see the next card? I guess it would be different if I had a larger stack, but since now my stack is only $110 and the pot is $80, should I just push? I say this because I actually took the exact line you proposed, but by the turn he still had the odds to call.

I bet $60 on the flop (leaving me with $50 behind), and I got one caller. The turn was a 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and he checked to me, so I pushed my remaining $50. But by now the pot was $200 + the $50 I was betting, so he was getting $250:$50, or 5:1 - which is still more than the 4.75:1 pot odds he needed to call with his 8s/9s.

If I had a bigger stack, I would have pushed more into the pot and obviously, he then wouldn't have had the odds to call. So, knowing that I would only be able to push $50 into the pot on the turn if I was called on the flop, would it have been better to push on the flop?

ts-

I limp here also because you have a short stack (I realize this is due to the set up of the buy-in). Raising this preflop instantly bloats this pot and makes it awkward to play since you're basically hoping for a TPGK type hand.

I think any bet you make on the turn pretty much committs you to the pot. If you bet 60 and get called, are you really going to fold the turn getting 3.5:1? With a scary board like that and only having less than 1.5x the pot, I just push in on the flop. This is just a tough spot because of your stack size and the size of the pot, but I don't see any point in just putting in 1/2 your stack here.

[Vitaliy]

Betting 3/4 IMO more aggressive approach of playing this hand.
After betting 3/4 of the pot almost doesn't matter what turn brings: you can lay your hand down only to K or Q no clubs. Corrupting your opponents' odds twice would be nice, but you have no stack for it. This way you just gave yourself a way out from this hand, luring more calls from stupid opponents. One mistake for him is bad enough.

Pushing right away (having your reputation) would be safest and less aggressive way to play this hand.