How do you plug a leak if you don't know it's there? (nh)

[NateDog]

I've been lurking quite a bit in SS and Mid-Hi lately. I see a lot of similar situations and plays in SS, but the mid-hi forum is a mind bender (betting out with TPTK on the flop is apparently a horrible play sometimes). I see a lot of experienced players and excellent posters (not the same thing of course) admonishing players for being 'weak-tight'. Through my progession in the nano's and micro's, I have been various stages of weak and tight.

My game seems to 'fit' a bit better into the tighter and still passive tables (relatively speaking) at Party & Co. Could this be caused by my own weak-tightness (gasp!)?

How does one go about determining if you are indeed pushing the small edges? Can it be found by drilling into your own PT stats? Or does it come from a thorough evaluation (self or otherwise) of a session or group of sessions, hand by hand.

I do not intend for this to be 'another stats post'. However if looking at a certain set of numbers will give the reader a clearer picture of his/her own playing style, then I will happily put my numbers up.

I am intrigued by players/posters such as Entity, CDC, Shillx, Davelyn, et all, who can transition seamlessly between the micro's, small stakes, and mid-high. It is apparent to me that their knowledge of the game is that much deeper than mine, and I want to peel back the layers of my game.

I have read and re-read most of the requisite texts. I spend a good portion of my non-working hours playing, reading, or thinkng poker. I have been fortunate enough to have ridden a gentle upswing for the past 30K hands. Is the breakthru coming?

[bottomset]

I'd suggest single tabling for a while

and try to put all of your opponents on hand ranges, shrinking the range as the action goes on ...

maybe just observe a table to try this, but try to figure out what a certain bet/call/raise means for various player types

[therockofgibraltar]

I personally suck at reading people. And because I am so bad at it, I don't do it much. I know this is a HUGE leak IF I want to move up in limits. Any tips on hand reading or is it just hard work and thinking??

It seems that when playing .5/1, a guy calls 3-bets colds and raises Ah-Ts-4s after one limper --> I put him on an A-something. In the end he shows 54s and collect when that flush came. (this hand happened today). So how can you even try to read these people when they play like this?

I know hand reading is very important skill when moving up but I just don't seem to get it.... THis is one thing I must focus on.

[Yort Mada]

[ QUOTE ]
I personally suck at reading people. And because I am so bad at it, I don't do it much. I know this is a HUGE leak IF I want to move up in limits. Any tips on hand reading or is it just hard work and thinking??

It seems that when playing .5/1, a guy calls 3-bets colds and raises Ah-Ts-4s after one limper --> I put him on an A-something. In the end he shows 54s and collect when that flush came. (this hand happened today). So how can you even try to read these people when they play like this?

I know hand reading is very important skill when moving up but I just don't seem to get it.... THis is one thing I must focus on.

[/ QUOTE ]

get poker tracker and mine some hands. This will rate the player for you, until you learn what plays bad people make and can rate them yourself <3.

[bottomset]

[ QUOTE ]
I personally suck at reading people. And because I am so bad at it, I don't do it much. I know this is a HUGE leak IF I want to move up in limits. Any tips on hand reading or is it just hard work and thinking??

It seems that when playing .5/1, a guy calls 3-bets colds and raises Ah-Ts-4s after one limper --> I put him on an A-something. In the end he shows 54s and collect when that flush came. (this hand happened today). So how can you even try to read these people when they play like this?

I know hand reading is very important skill when moving up but I just don't seem to get it.... THis is one thing I must focus on.

[/ QUOTE ]

I got an idea

go into PT and use the handreplayer to replay an entire session

get some scratch paper, and take very detailed notes on each player, what they limp/raise, coldcall, what they bet/call/raise on flops, start attempting to put them on a hand range, and as the hand progresses eliminate hands that would no longer be played the way the hand went

you can take your time, and focus .. it should become easier with time and practice

[therockofgibraltar]

thanks! this sounds like a great idea and I will try this today. It's good because there are no time limits, so that I can really concentrate and take my time [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Nfinity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I personally suck at reading people. And because I am so bad at it, I don't do it much. I know this is a HUGE leak IF I want to move up in limits. Any tips on hand reading or is it just hard work and thinking??

It seems that when playing .5/1, a guy calls 3-bets colds and raises Ah-Ts-4s after one limper --> I put him on an A-something. In the end he shows 54s and collect when that flush came. (this hand happened today). So how can you even try to read these people when they play like this?

I know hand reading is very important skill when moving up but I just don't seem to get it.... THis is one thing I must focus on.

[/ QUOTE ]

I got an idea

go into PT and use the handreplayer to replay an entire session

get some scratch paper, and take very detailed notes on each player, what they limp/raise, coldcall, what they bet/call/raise on flops, start attempting to put them on a hand range, and as the hand progresses eliminate hands that would no longer be played the way the hand went

you can take your time, and focus .. it should become easier with time and practice

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an excellent idea. I have an extension on it:

Started doing this shortly after my first skim through Pshychology of Poker (which will also help you get a feel for your opponents)

Find an opponent that you have you have a goodly amount of hands on (I'd say around 100 or so, enough to get a good sense of their overall playing style)

Pull him up in PT and use the Hand replayer to replay his hands from his perspective.

This only works if you go at it with an open mind. You can't sit there and keep saying to yourself "What is this guy thinking, he's such a moron, blah blah blah"

You have to go through it and try and figure out what you would have to be thinking to be making these plays.

It's also a good opportunity to take a couple of real notes on that player.

Do this every once in a while for a different player type(LA-P, LAG, etc.) and I guarantee you will at least feel more confident at the table.

I think of it as widening the horizons on the broad generalization.

[oreogod]

This is a good idea. Although the paper and pen stuff is out the window in my book. Go by your autorate or stats in PT and go from there.

[NateDog]

Sounds like an excellent exercise. Granted, my hand reading needs work, and I imagine 99% of the players frequenting these forums would say the same.

Are you saying that as I narrow the range of hands for a particular opponent or type of opponent, I should be able to make a 'more correct' decision in a particular hand with a marginal edge? At this point, I can't say with any certainty that I am extracting the most, and continuing to push +EV situations when they aren't blatantly obvious. I believe this is the standard definition of 'weak=tight'.

At this hour of the morning I can't quite recall which text I read it in, but one of our esteemed professors claimed that 'at some point in every players develpment, they will play a weak-tight game' (loosely paraphrasing). I know I was there, but have I returned? Is it even possible that the learning curve in actually circular?

I don't spend much time skimming the Psych forum. I have read Dr. Al's PoP, and it continues to make a dramatic difference in my game. I may cross-post a link to this thread, as I'd imagine some of the minds there may think a bit outside the micro-multi tabling-TAG box.

[Dov]

Here's the scoop.

Weak tight wins in the micros and small stakes.

However, if you want to move beyond that, you need to be able to read hands. This is somewhat difficult in the low limit games because people will play any 2 cards, sometimes.

Even still, when you run into a passive player and they raise PF, start noticing what they raised with.

Same thing when you see someone raise the turn. What did they raise with?

What about a complete calling station? Did he have some kind of hand or was he just curious about your hand?

You need to start trying to understand why people are doing what they are doing. Read all of the strategy posts in the small stakes and micros and stay away from the mid high for a little while.

The advice is conflicting because the games play differently. Concentrate on beating your game first. The higher forums will still be there for you later.

Make sure you try to give advice on almost every hand in the forum, and explain your reasoning behind it. You can make a disclaimer that you're not an expert if you want, but make sure you do it.

Everyone else will pick apart your approach and either fine tune it or give you a better one.

This will enable you to learn on other people's mistakes and will drastically shorten your learning curve.

Leave the name calling to other people. If you don't understand something, simply ask again, but if you start being rude, people will begin to ignore you.

It seems like you want to improve, so if you can stick to it, you most likely will. You're definitely in the right place.