Kill pot situation

bernie · #1 10-20-2004, 06:21 PM

This may have all the significance of when to post after the button when first coming in, but i thought it might be interesting to look at.

You're in a kill game. The next pot is a kill pot. It's your turn to post the big blind. Do you post it, or wait and post behind the button?

Does it matter where the kill is being posted at?

Thoughts/comments?

b

sthief09 · #2 10-20-2004, 06:38 PM

how are kill pots played? are they especially loose-passive or loose-aggressive? technically, if you wait for the button to pass you miss 3 hands, for 1.5 SB plus having to pay an additional 1 SB to see a flop in the BB. but when you're in the SB it'll be back to normal right?

bernie · #3 10-20-2004, 06:50 PM

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technically, if you wait for the button to pass you miss 3 hands, for 1.5 SB plus having to pay an additional 1 SB to see a flop in the BB.

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Actually, i think you only miss 2 hands then you can post behind for a full bet + the sb into the middle. But if there's no kill at this point, you may get a free play with position.

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but when you're in the SB it'll be back to normal right?

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Probably. Unless the killer wins again.

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how are kill pots played? are they especially loose-passive or loose-aggressive?

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This is a good point to factor in.

b

Monty Cantsin · #4 10-20-2004, 06:51 PM

Definitely post. I find that people tend to make more mistakes in kill pots, some of them get too tight, some of them overadjust to the general tightness by getting too aggressive. More importantly though, any +EV you might squeeze out of ducking this blind would be more than made up for by the -EV mood-killingly nittiness of this move. It's a kill pot. Kill pots are fun. w00t.

/mc

slavic · #5 10-21-2004, 12:30 AM

Bernie you get to play for effectivly a SB, it's a bit of a discount. This is not the same thing as a straddle were if your BB was always straddled you have to move, you have no choice. In this case you are the middle of a 3 blind rotation and the implide odds stay the same post flop because the limits double.

StellarWind · #6 10-21-2004, 01:14 AM

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Bernie you get to play for effectivly a SB, it's a bit of a discount. This is not the same thing as a straddle were if your BB was always straddled you have to move, you have no choice. In this case you are the middle of a 3 blind rotation and the implide odds stay the same post flop because the limits double.

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I agree with your analysis except for the conclusion that this is to your advantage. That I am not so sure of.

My PT database isn't really big enough to give a solid answer. However it seems to be telling me that the -EV associated with playing a SB is more than half the -EV of playing a BB. If this is true, then the doubling of the stakes means that the -EV resulting from the kill is larger than a normal BB and you are losing money due to the kill.

There are many issues:

1. PT databases are distorted because cutoff posters are lumped in with big blinds.

2. How does the real SB influence the situation?

3. There is a very good chance you may be forced to play the SB with another kill. What's the cost/benefit of that?

4. If you have to pay an extra 1/2 SB dead to post in cutoff, that's probably a deal breaker. That rule doesn't exist online. Is it prevalent in B&M?

5. Kill pots play abnormally I'm sure, although I have no idea what the differences might be. What is the impact of that?

6. Waiting to post could damage the game or even your long-term image.

Does anyone have a really big PT database that can provide statistically significant EV comparisons between SB losses and BB losses?

bernie · #7 10-21-2004, 02:20 AM

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1. PT databases are distorted because cutoff posters are lumped in with big blinds

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My guess is that a CO poster is making more/losing less than a BB post. Position alone should account for that.

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3. There is a very good chance you may be forced to play the SB with another kill. What's the cost/benefit of that?

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About a 10-15% chance. Full table: 9 or 10 players.

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4. If you have to pay an extra 1/2 SB dead to post in cutoff, that's probably a deal breaker. That rule doesn't exist online. Is it prevalent in B&M?

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You can do this online. At least at UB you can. You're posting both blinds but with position. However, you're trading essentially 2 small blind situations, for one posted blind + 1/2 situation with position where you may only have to check to see the flop.

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If this is true, then the doubling of the stakes means that the -EV resulting from the kill is larger than a normal BB and you are losing money due to the kill.

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This is true because you're putting more at risk on the table than you are during a normal hand. Which can be tougher to recoup should you lose and there isn't another kill pot for awhile. I think the general rule for kill pots is to play them a little tighter because of this. I'd have to check on that. I tend to play them the same.

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5. Kill pots play abnormally I'm sure, although I have no idea what the differences might be. What is the impact of that?

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Continuing from above. Knowing how opponents play in a kill pot really helps. Some will play tighter postflop as the monetary risk might factor in to their thoughts. Some get wild with all the money in there. Adjust accordingly.

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6. Waiting to post could damage the game or even your long-term image.

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Because this situation likely isn't going to come up that often, like in my disclaimer about signifigance, i'm ignoring the image side of it. It would be a nitty move to pull. You could probably get away with it once. But should it happen a couple times in fairly close succession, I think they would catch on.

b

StellarWind · #8 10-21-2004, 11:03 AM

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You can do this online. At least at UB you can. You're posting both blinds but with position. However, you're trading essentially 2 small blind situations, for one posted blind + 1/2 situation with position where you may only have to check to see the flop.

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I reread your initial post. Maybe I didn't understand the first time around. I thought that you had just sat down and were waiting for the BB to arrive before playing. But it arrives with a kill and you are considering waiting for the button to pass before joining the game.

Now I think you are talking about taking two hands off at a table you are already playing.

Party and Paradise both allow a player who is new to the table to wait for the cutoff and then post for only 1 small bet. But if you have played a hand and then miss the BB you need to put an additional 1/2 SB dead money into the pot to post after the button.

I think skipping the BB and posting after the button passes to avoid a kill is a bad idea. Waiting until cutoff to post is a bargain for 1 SB but seriously -EV at 1.5 SB. TTH simulations make this quite clear. You are losing three hands out of the orbit and not reducing your blind cost at all. [You only watch two hands, but you play three less hands before the BB arrives again.]

Aside from that, I would be very resentful if I were sitting behind you and you accelerated my BB into a kill pot with this trick. Ill will is bad. Someone has to post this blind.

The way to do this is to take off the entire orbit and return for the next BB. I assume you would only try this now and then. Do it sometime when you are almost due for a break anyway.

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About a 10-15% chance. Full table: 9 or 10 players.

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Surely it is much higher than that. The kill payment helps him win the kill pot. Unless this is a table where everyone plays all the hands.