Ugh, I never know how to play TT

sammy_g · #1 11-23-2004, 09:14 PM

I have been at the table for less than an orbit, so I don't have a read on Loathsome Villan. Misplayed on every street? [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Fearless Protagonist is BB with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG (Loathsome Villan) raises, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, Fearless Protagonist calls.

Flop: (4.66 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Fearless Protagonist bets, Loathsome Villan raises, MP2 folds, Fearless Protagonist 3-bets, Loathsome Villan calls.

Turn: (5.33 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Fearless Protagonist bets, Loathsome Villan raises, Fearless Protagonist folds.

Final Pot: 8.33 BB

vector2 · #2 11-23-2004, 10:08 PM

You definitely should've three-bet him preflop. At this point, he could have any hand from 88 to AQ to a flush draw with overcards. Three-betting preflop and then leading out on the flop sends a much stronger message than just calling his raise preflop. Now if you lead out on the flop and he just raises, I would just call the raise and check-raise the turn. If he three-bets you on the turn, odds are you're beat against solid players who raise UTG. Since you've never played with this guy, you should've just check-called the rest of the hand and paid him off.

Monkeyslacks · #3 11-23-2004, 10:09 PM

3-bet pf.

The way you played it, you have to call down.

kanijima · #4 11-23-2004, 10:16 PM

in general TT should always be 3-bet pre; unless of course you have a read on someone being unusually tight. i like the flop aggression. the turn-fold seems a fitting line for live play, but i'd be more hesitant to fold against party 15ers.

Kevin J · #5 11-23-2004, 10:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You definitely should've three-bet him preflop. At this point, he could have any hand from 88 to AQ to a flush draw with overcards. Three-betting preflop and then leading out on the flop sends a much stronger message than just calling his raise preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know I 'm probably in a 2% minority on this forum, but I completely disagree with the above statement...

The lost EV by failing to 3 bet is (I think), grossly over estimated . First, TT may not be the best hand and when it isn't, it's trailing by a lot. I understand that it will be the best hand often enough, but there are many bad flops for TT. Perhaps more importantly, a good player may derive post-flop advantages by not 3-betting, as he now has more playing options available to him. Deception and the ability to represent a wider range of hands are not the least among them. IMO-

Monkeyslacks · #6 11-23-2004, 10:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The lost EV by failing to 3 bet is (I think), grossly over estimated . First, TT may not be the best hand and when it isn't, it's trailing by a lot. I understand that it will be the best hand often enough, but there are many bad flops for TT. Perhaps more importantly, a good player may derive post-flop advantages by not 3-betting, as he now has more playing options available to him. Deception and the ability to represent a wider range of hands are not the least among them. IMO-

[/ QUOTE ]

Your position has more merit when you have position.

-IMO [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

vector2 · #7 11-23-2004, 10:56 PM

There are many bad flops for TT, but most of those are easy to recognize. You're going to flop an overpair with TT about 60% of the time. Your point may have merit in a tougher mid-limit game where deception is more useful, but I think not three-betting TT PF out of position in a Party 15/30 game is seriously -EV.

[ QUOTE ]

I know I 'm probably in a 2% minority on this forum, but I completely disagree with the above statement...

The lost EV by failing to 3 bet is (I think), grossly over estimated . First, TT may not be the best hand and when it isn't, it's trailing by a lot. I understand that it will be the best hand often enough, but there are many bad flops for TT. Perhaps more importantly, a good player may derive post-flop advantages by not 3-betting, as he now has more playing options available to him. Deception and the ability to represent a wider range of hands are not the least among them. IMO-

[/ QUOTE ]

vmacosta · #8 11-23-2004, 11:13 PM

I like a 3-bet PF only if I have no read whatsoever and my game is quite LAG (and PP 15 certainly qualifies). Against tough opposition in B&M games, I call and play the exact same way as you did. Occasionally I C/R the turn though. Problem with this is if he calls, I hate my hand but have to check call the river

Kevin J · #9 11-23-2004, 11:19 PM

I see what you mean, but I actually think re-raising often has more merit WITH position, especially if you're likely to knock out players and play the pot short-handed. From the bb, you're not likely to eliminate a player who has already called an UTG raise.

I understand the taking control thing, but I also think that's overrated. A 3-bet from the bb, I believe often makes it easier, not harder, for UTG to play more correctly. That is, with a hand like AK and +9 small bets in the pot, he'll likely continue until he's incorrect to do so. Or he may still raise the flop, which makes the queen on the turn harder to deal with. On the other hand, when he does have a big pair he's probably going to extract at least one bet from TT on ever street. IMO-

Kevin J · #10 11-23-2004, 11:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
There are many bad flops for TT, but most of those are easy to recognize.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would a single overcard make it easy to recognize if the flop were good or bad? Would A98 be a good or bad flop for TT with an UTG raiser and a cold caller behind you?

[ QUOTE ]
You're going to flop an overpair with TT about 60% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

And how many times will TT still be an overpair by 4th street? What about the river? My main point is when that many bets go into a pot pre-flop people aren't going to readily fold and correctly so. By keeping the pot small you retain other sometimes creative options that could win you a pot you otherwise couldn't, whether TT is best or not. For the record...

I'm not trying to be difficult. I'm not saying it's a terrible play. I just think it's overrated and not a "definite" 3-bet as you stated. That's all.