Wait for it...

kurosh · #1 09-22-2005, 11:26 PM

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
Hero raises, MP calls, CO calls, 1 fold, SB calls, 1 fold.

Flop: (9 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, MP calls, CO calls, SB raises, Hero calls, MP calls, CO calls.

Turn: (8.50 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, MP folds, CO folds, SB calls.

River: (12.50 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB calls.

Final Pot: 14.50 BB

I only have a significant number of hands on the guy that CR'd and he is 40/20/2.

ALL1N · #2 09-23-2005, 01:22 AM

Even though the board is paired, there are tonnes of gutshots and 1 overcard out. Your hand still needs protecting, so 3-bet the flop.

Also, SB may have a flush draw and check the turn.

imitation · #3 09-23-2005, 01:27 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Even though the board is paired, there are tonnes of gutshots and 1 overcard out. Your hand still needs protecting, so 3-bet the flop.

Also, SB may have a flush draw and check the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the idea is that FD, OESD are getting correct odds to call the flop 3-bet, hence wait until the turn to raise. I don't know many times when someone CR the entire field OOP against everyone then checks the next street, and I doubt it would be the play of a FD, more likely trips.

baronzeus · #4 09-23-2005, 01:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I think the idea is that FD, OESD are getting correct odds to call the flop 3-bet,

[/ QUOTE ]

aren't they getting the correct odds to call for it on the turn too? (11.5 or 12.5:2?)

ALL1N · #5 09-23-2005, 01:35 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Even though the board is paired, there are tonnes of gutshots and 1 overcard out. Your hand still needs protecting, so 3-bet the flop.

Also, SB may have a flush draw and check the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the idea is that FD, OESD are getting correct odds to call the flop 3-bet, hence wait until the turn to raise. I don't know many times when someone CR the entire field OOP against everyone then checks the next street, and I doubt it would be the play of a FD, more likely trips.

[/ QUOTE ]

Clearly that's the idea. But flush draws and straight draws aren't folding regardless, and we can't make it correct for them to fold whatever we do. This stuff is in the books anyway. The time to wait for the turn is when you can't protect your hand; ie if the raiser is just behind you. Then you go for value.

TazQ · #6 09-23-2005, 03:08 AM

I'm not sure what you're getting at. If you can't protect your hand on the flop, you won't be able to do it on the turn either with the raiser's position in your example, thats when you shrug your shoulders and pump it on the flop knowing everyone is calling.

wackjob · #7 09-23-2005, 03:13 AM

Very, very few players ever fold an OESD or flush draw regardless of odds or anything else.. they are gambling after all. The only question here is.. how do I make the most money with my overpair? The answer has to be related to how your expect your opponents to react to both a flop 3-bet or a turn raise.

ALL1N · #8 09-23-2005, 03:27 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure what you're getting at. If you can't protect your hand on the flop, you won't be able to do it on the turn either with the raiser's position in your example, thats when you shrug your shoulders and pump it on the flop knowing everyone is calling.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're trying to protect against 3/4 outers. Flush and OESD's aren't folding. Gutshots and Ax will fold to the flop 3-bet.

TazQ · #9 09-23-2005, 03:00 AM

They'll still be getting the odds on the turn, but the hero's equity will higher if a blank falls. Whether it's bigger enough on the turn to warrant waiting until popping it again is another matter.

baronzeus · #10 09-23-2005, 01:26 AM

i 3bet this flop...may be wrong...what turn cards were you planning on not raising?