How horrible is this play?

[PokerGoblin]

Before you read any further, understand I need the [censored] kicked out of me in this thread.

$50 NL Large Caps on party.

830 start.

down to 105. Money cutoff is 90.

I am at table 10 and have been for a long time. Avg chip stack in the tourney is 6800. Chip leader has 21k.

I have 11k, second in chips at the table.

Now for the hand:

I am dealt A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] In the cutoff -1.

The Chip leader (~ 14k) limps (levels 300 and 600) from UTG. Folds to me, I make it 1800 TC. After the stallers stall and fold, everyone folds to the limper who calls.

The chip leader and I have trading the chip lead back and forth for about an hour. I played one hand with him heads up. I doubled up through him with AQs when, after limping from early position he calls my raise w/ Q-9s and we both flopped 2 pair. We both checked the flop, he checked to me and I bet a weak amount on the turn, he went all in and I called. So he slowplayed twice. Point is he is rather loose from EP and isn't all that great of a player.

Flop comes 9-4-3 all diamonds. He checked, I pushed.

I'm a goddamned retard.

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I am not looking for sympathy, so spare me the 'even if he does have a set or the flush, you still have outs to beat him' type of responses. Just grip it and rip it.

PG

[Go Blue]

Ummm...I don't think it was all that bad of a play. You probably had the best hand there and even if you didn't you had the draw to the nuts.

I take it from this post that this hand had a bad ending to it?

[Double Eagle]

not sure what you were trying to accomplish with the push. Seems like a half pot bet or even a check would allow you to extract some chips from the hands that you are ahead of - I fear this push is only going to be called by the hands that are ahead of you....

[Go Blue]

Well there's over T4k in the pot and the allin is for about T9k, or about twice the pot. Doesn't seem like a bad play to me. A smaller bet would increase the chance of a drawout. You would think that the only way you get called here is either with a flush or a set, in which case you still have a decent amount of outs to win.

But generally speaking, I have been in situations like this. What does everyone else think is the correct play here. I'd push probably, unless it was RIGHT near the cutoff, which this wasn't completely.

[Absolution]

I think the question really is are you capable of folding those aces against one opponent? If you make 1/2-2/3 pot bet to chase away the garbage draws and weak pairs (probably the only thing you'd want to drive out), are you capable of folding to an all-in reraise? I posted a similar problem in a previous post where I was faced with the all-in and not dishing it out, but didn't get responses. I know I usually call and it might be a leak. I seem to run into sets or better in these situations (although that could just be selective memory) and pay off, but I have this "I would have been all-in preflop so I might as well now" attitude. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] The fact that I was obviously a huge favorite before the flop and the chance that they are bluffing make me push with aces regardless of post flop action. Maybe when I'm better I'll be able to lay them down, but honestly, you want action with aces and then when you get it you fold? Not me at this point.

That being said, what do you get with a push? Assuming you're not laying these down, you'd probably have a better chance of getting all the money in with a less than pot bet. You'd want something like a flush draw + pair or high pair to follow.

[PokerGoblin]

Well I woke up still pissed at myself this morning.

The things that make pushing a bad play are:

My opponent is the only one who has me covered. I had 11k to start the hand, the next lowest stack was 8k. Against one of the short stacked this push makes sense. But caution should have been considered given my opponent.

Generally pushing is to protect a strong hand. What am I protecting? An overpair and the nut flush draw. Why don't I want to give him a free card... maybe he has AK w/ the K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].

It was automatic. I knew I was basically gonna push any flop. It was purely unimaginative and I didn't think of the consequences.

I am ONLY going to get called if I am behind. If I bet a small amount, I leave myself open to get bluffed out.

In hindsight knowing how my opponent played a strong hand against me before, I could have checked the flop, made like a 2k bet on the turn (assuming he checks), then when he sets me in I can fold.

The results, albeit rather insignificant to the discussion, is that he showed K-10 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] for the second nut flush. I think his play is horrible, he limps a marginal hand from UTG, then calls a preflop raise from me, if I have any table image to these guys it's that I am a tight aggressive player, more of a rock later on in the tourney than anything. Furthermore I am the only player at the table who can cripple him, as he only has me covered by five big blinds.

Oh well I guess. Next time I will slow down in a situation like this.

Later

PG

[kuro]

In this situation with a pretty uncoordinated board, I generally check/call the flop,turn, and value bet the river.
If you get pushed all-in at any stage then you have to make a decision. Most of the time if someone flops a flush, they won't put you in because they are scared that you'll fold. If you end up with 4 diamonds on the board you'll frequently get paid off by a smaller flush as well. I think this line generally wins you the most money while minimizing your losses.

[nightlyraver]

First, I don't know why you only raised it to 3x w/ the bullets after a loose limper entered the pot and everyone folded it to you. Don't be shy and raise it up to about 3K (maybe a little less if the stacks at the table are too short compared to the blinds). In fact, if he's gonna limp and call raises with hands like Q9, you should be making this type of raise often since you will often have the better hand. Ask yourself this though, what are the odds that he will fold to the raise and you get to pick up the blinds and his limp - at this level that would be t1500 for a t3000 raise. If the odds are greater than 50%, then you will show an immediate profit on this steal-play.

Anyway, going heads-up to the flop is another story. You already stipulated that he is very prone to slowplay. That said, why did you push after his check? The only reason why you would push here is if he checks with a hand like K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and you had no diamonds. That way you push to protect against him DRAWING to a flush. After his check you should either put him on a hand like Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (he will fold to a bet or try to bluff and pay you off), A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (he will want to draw to the next to the nuts, which won't be good and again you get paid off), or a hand like 99,44,33 (you are WAY behind) OR an already made flush.

Will he call your push and pay you off on his diamond draw? If not, NEVER push. Will he check it on this type of flop with a hand like A9? If not, the you must put him on either trash, a draw or a real strong hand. Given his prepensity to slowplay, there is no reason to push. The diamond draw gives you the nuts so take a free card, damnit! Remember the old addage: If you're not sure where you are and it's checked to you, check hands with outs and bet hands with few or no outs. Right now you have 7-9 outs to the nut flush and probably 2 outs to a set of aces. There is no reason that I can think of to bet this hand when holding the A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] - if you had NO diamonds, then that's a different story...

[webiggy]

Ask yourself, what would Brian Boitano do?

I would play cautiously and be prepared to lay it down. It's not to say check the flop, but there's no reason to go in. Play 10 to 20% of your stack and see what happens.

[paulish]

Hero: [A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]]
Villain: [K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]]
Flop: [9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]]
Hero actually has an EV of 31.7% here

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I presume it's 50 300/600

Comment on the Pre-flop play
3xBB (1.800) is a way too low raise after someone has limped.
I'd go for 5xBB (3.000)

Comment on Flop play
Pot = (10x50)+300+600+600+1800+1200 = 5.000
Hero has ca. 9.000 left
Hero has highest over-pair and nut-flush draw

ok, so you have to bet here. how much?
3.000? If the Villain now re-raises 6.000, the pot would now be (5k+3k+6k) 14.000. Giving our Hero pot-odds of 2.3-1, which he'd have to call....reluctantly or not.
Well if this is the case, then you do the pushing.
Also notice that you actually draw him out 31.7% of the time
(Even against the worst case scenario of [6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]], you win 1 in 4).
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You did nothing wrong on the flop, but notice that you would have had an easier decision on the flop, had you bet 3.000. The pot would no be 7.400, and you would have had 8.000 left.

It's true that you should avoid playing big stack vs. big stack in the late stages. But you have Aces and nut flush draw, with no pair on the board!
I dissagree on the part that only a hand that can beat you will call. A King high flush draw might call. KK-TT and A9 might also.

<font color="red"> don't get paranoid </font>

<font color="blue"> paulish </font>