Pre-flop vs. Post-flop

[Rickjohn]

I recall reading in one of the Holdem bibles (SSHE or HEP)that one shouldn't spend an undue amount of time determining the "correct" preflop hand chart. Rather one should spend the time mastering postflop play. In general this seems like good advice over most games. However like most general advice there are caveats.

Suppose you are in a loose, passive, no foldem game where 6-8 players see the flop, 5-6 the turn, 4-5 the river, and 3-4 the showdown. In these sorts of games, fancy play after the flop is usually a waste. If you have made your hand you bet it, if you have a draw, you use implied odds, if not you fold. It's usually quite clear how to play postflop.

In these games, I believe preflop play takes on greater importance than in normal "tighter" games.

What do you think?

However

[jrz1972]

Postflop play is still more important than preflop play, but postflop play in hugely multiway pots does tend to get kind of mechanical at times.

Limping PF with a hand that's a little too light might cost you a sb. Failing to pump a draw properly can cost you multiple sbs. Failing to protect your hand properly can cost you the whole pot.

[numeri]

Yes and no. You're absolutely right - in the game that you described, straight-forward 'ABC' poker is the way to go. Unfortunately, you have to work a bit to find those games. You'll quickly find yourself in other less-optimal situations, and you'll need to improve your post-flop play to remain successful.

By the way, do you have a starting hand chart? It's nice to have a good one to go by. There's a popular one here, originally from ohgeetee.

[davelin]

I think if you understand the fundamental principles of poker, then you'll become better in both pre- and post-flop play and not worry about any sort of "distinction".

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
I recall reading in one of the Holdem bibles (SSHE or HEP)that one shouldn't spend an undue amount of time determining the "correct" preflop hand chart. Rather one should spend the time mastering postflop play. In general this seems like good advice over most games. However like most general advice there are caveats.

Suppose you are in a loose, passive, no foldem game where 6-8 players see the flop, 5-6 the turn, 4-5 the river, and 3-4 the showdown. In these sorts of games, fancy play after the flop is usually a waste. If you have made your hand you bet it, if you have a draw, you use implied odds, if not you fold. It's usually quite clear how to play postflop.

In these games, I believe preflop play takes on greater importance than in normal "tighter" games.

What do you think?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think those games exist so rarely that it's not worth worrying about them.

But since you brought it up, it's not so "clear" how to best play postflop. What you call "fancy" play is probably straightforward big pot poker. When you have players of this type (I'm assuming that they're generally passive), you need to learn how to manipulate the pot to maximize on their loose calls. You need to figure out where you have an equity edge. You need to know how to (try to) isolate players and where it's impossible to do this. This is not always easy.

The preflop mistakes that will be made here are much easier to find and to fix. If you fail to raise strong multi-way hands, you lose money. If you're too tight (16 VPIP), you lose money. Any reasonable way of playing that puts you at about 20 VPIP will be just fine. The small variations in your preflop play will be buried under the avalanche of postflop value plays.

[deception5]

[ QUOTE ]
I think those games exist so rarely that it's not worth worrying about them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree, nearly every low limit game I played at Pacific was like this.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think those games exist so rarely that it's not worth worrying about them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree, nearly every low limit game I played at Pacific was like this.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was getting the impression from the posts around here that those games have been steadily disappearing in recent months. (I've never had the pleasure of playing in those games at all.) I could very well be wrong about it.

[deception5]

[ QUOTE ]
I was getting the impression from the posts around here that those games have been steadily disappearing in recent months. (I've never had the pleasure of playing in those games at all.) I could very well be wrong about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is very possible. I haven't been there since February. I couldn't believe the difference in skill between the .02/.04 games my wife has been playing at stars versus the .05/.10 I remembered from Pacific though (6 way capped preflop or 7-10 to the flop were not uncommon scenarios). It's like a different game.

[KingOtter]

[ QUOTE ]
I was getting the impression from the posts around here that those games have been steadily disappearing in recent months. (I've never had the pleasure of playing in those games at all.) I could very well be wrong about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

With all due respect (because as a rule I respect your posts quite a bit, Aaron)....

I've been getting the impression that the moon is made of green cheese lately (I've never had the pleasure of being there), but I could be wrong.

In other words, statements like this are ill-advised, and quite without meaning, IMO.

KO

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I was getting the impression from the posts around here that those games have been steadily disappearing in recent months. (I've never had the pleasure of playing in those games at all.) I could very well be wrong about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

With all due respect (because as a rule I respect your posts quite a bit, Aaron)....

I've been getting the impression that the moon is made of green cheese lately (I've never had the pleasure of being there), but I could be wrong.

In other words, statements like this are ill-advised, and quite without meaning, IMO.

KO

[/ QUOTE ]

Ni han, sir.