TT went well, but how was my thinking?

JKDStudent · #1 06-06-2005, 01:57 PM

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. UTG posts a blind of $1.
UTG+1 calls, 3 folds, CO calls, Button raises, Hero 3-bets, UTG (poster) calls, UTG+1 calls, CO folds, Button calls.

Flop: (13 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Button bets, Hero raises, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, Button calls.

Turn: (8.50 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, Button calls.

River: (10.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, Button folds.

Final Pot: 11.50 BB

3-bet pf is pretty obvious. An all undercard flop looked good, too. But with the flush draw and straight draw (albeit unlikely) and two more cards to come which could easily carry overs, a bet wasn't protecting me here and it would scarcely be for value. I checked, hoping for it to go around to Button. Since he raised pf, I was hoping he'd raise when it got checked around to him. Lucky me, it did. I raise, knock out two people, and then bet the next two unders.

So, how was this flop logic?

shadow29 · #2 06-06-2005, 02:07 PM

Sounds good to me.

Something I might consider though: call pf with the intention of c/ring any flop.

Blindfolk · #3 06-06-2005, 02:54 PM

I like the CR, but it may not work all the time.

Shadow, why would you not 3bet PF?

DeathDonkey · #4 06-06-2005, 02:57 PM

I don't think this flop play works most times. You 3 bet preflop, if he doesn't suck he isn't going to bet his AK/AQ hand on this flop. I would like it much better if you just called his raise preflop and then did this. But I think 3 betting preflop is fine, you just have to lead the flop. It really sucks if it gets checked around like it will alot of the time. Oh, and when the button bets this flop he will have you beat a decent amount of the time.

-DeathDonkey

Fantam · #5 06-06-2005, 03:35 PM

Funny enough there was a similar question to yours with a similar hand history over the weekend.

I think your reasoning was on the right track, but that it would have been better to wait for the turn to attempt your check-raise.

On the flop, your c/r left your 2 UTG opponents odds of at least 8:1 to call. With implied odds this is probably still sufficient to justify them calling with hands as weak as gut-shots.

However, lets assume that you and your 2 other oppenents all called Buttons flop raise. Then if you were successful in c/r the turn your UTG opponents would now only be getting pot odds of slightly less than 6:1. This would then make their calling with hands like gut-shots (and possibly even any pair) unprofitable.

OK, you risk a dangerous turn card spoiling your hand, but it probably was not possible to definitely protect your hand with a flop c/r anyway.

Also if a "safe" card falls on the turn, you are now in a better position to push your equity edge.

Fantam · #6 06-06-2005, 03:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
if he doesn't suck he isn't going to bet his AK/AQ hand on this flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

With 13 sb in the pot, I think Button could quite reasonably bet AK or AQ if it was checked round to him. He certainly has sufficient pot odds to improve his hand, and it might buy him a "free" turn card if he needs it.

So I would not consider that I was definitely beaten if Button bet the flop after it was checked round to him.

Womble · #7 06-06-2005, 04:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if he doesn't suck he isn't going to bet his AK/AQ hand on this flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

With 13 sb in the pot, I think Button could quite reasonably bet AK or AQ if it was checked round to him. He certainly has sufficient pot odds to improve his hand, and it might buy him a "free" turn card if he needs it.

So I would not consider that I was definitely beaten if Button bet the flop after it was checked round to him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe, but the low flop means that it will likely be raised and overcards would not like that.

JKDStudent · #8 06-06-2005, 04:04 PM

Hm. I definitely like the call preflop and then c/r the flop or turn line. But one reason I like the 3-bet preflop is that I may get rid of those limpers. They put in a single bet, but now it's two more back to them. Like I said, I was new to the table and didn't have any reliable reads, so I just went off of recent 1/2 experience which says weak-tight. I figured I would be in much better shape to win unimproved against one or two players than five.

Another reason behind my c/r attempt on the flop was that even if it got checked through, that wouldn't be painfully horrible. Sure, overcards would hurt me, but if it didn't get bet and another safe card came, I could simply lead out with the larger bet.