spread limit games??

[ImCrazy]

I am a newbie here and to poker and I have not been able to find very much info on spread limit. the only live game near me is in Wendover, NV where the game is either 1-5 spread or 2-5 spread with a kill. What I want to know is what strategy changes do you make for a game like this. Do you tighten up more, or loosen up? do you defend your blinds more? I know alot of it has to do with my opponents, image, etc. but purely based on the game what changes do you make? do you make additional changes on games with a kill? are they more advantageous to luck players or skill players?

[MisterKing]

Good questions, particularly for anyone looking to play at the Excalibur in Las Vegas where they have a 1-3 spread limit (the lowest limit game in Vegas) and a 2-6 spread limit (which is fishier than the Pacific effing Ocean).


Some Concepts
I can't claim to be an expert on spread limit, but I do think some principles from Sklansky's Theory of Poker inform the discussion somewhat. One idea is that the lower the blinds and antes relative to future bets, the fewer hands you should play. The converse is also true, and the conclusion you should draw is that if there is a single blind (as there is in Excal's games), your starting requirements do theoretically go up quite a bit. However the nature of the spread limit game offsets that requirement somewhat, since betting on 4th and 5th street is made in the same increments as it is on the flop, unlike typical 2/4 or 3/6 hold'em.

As a consequence of the dynamics laid out above (small blinds relative to bets, different postflop betting structure), my understanding is that you'll need to adjust the kinds of hands you play. Offsuit top pair hands like AQo would seem to go down in value, since you cannot protect them with a double size raise on the turn to cut your opponents' odds. Yes, you can bet the max, but if the spread is narrow (1-3 or 2-6), that max is just not a whole lot compared to the minimum wager. As a matter of reality, I think you'll see a TON of min-bet limping going on in these games.

Rather, you'll want to seek out solid suited hands (KQs, 87s, AJs, etc.) and pocket pairs, and dump more of your offsuit hands (like KQo). The betting stays constant, and that means you'll often have the odds to draw at the turn, even with hands like a gutshot + one overcard. The simple fact is, you are going to face a large field on most hands (these are low limit games, so people will donk along anyhow), and due to the structure of a narrow spread game, they'll be correct according to the Fundamental Theory of Poker in continuing with a huge range of hands. That's right, I just said that the fish will be making the right plays, often by accident. The response for you is to focus on hands that play well in multiway pots and actually benefit from the extra action.

As an aside, Morton's Theorem, which you can search for, shows that the Fundamental Theory of Poker does not apply in certain multiway situations. These are situations where some hands lack the odds to continue (meaning if they continue, according to FTOP, the money they put in should benefit the player who has the best hand), but Hero still wants them to fold. The reason is that their extra action benefits not the player with the best hand presently, but the player with the best draw. I raise this theorem because it has important implications for spread limit games where the field is likely to be crowded, even on the later streets. You'll really, really want to have a hand that plays well in this environment and benefits from the extra action, and that means a solid drawing hand.

If the spread is wide, however, things change. Imagine a 2-200 spread limit game. This is obviously a hyperbole, but the delta in the spread means players who want to cut the odds will easily be able to do so, much as in PL and NL games. You won't be able to donk along to the river with a gutshot + one overcard, at least as long as your opponents care to try and stop you by raising a substantial amount with their pairs and such.

So when is a spread "large" and when is it "small"? I don't really know the answer to this, but I'm sure the more mathematically astute around here do. I'd venture to say a 1-4 spread plays much differently than 1-3 spread, and so on. Lets play a hypothetical hand and see why.


Example Hand 1, small spread
Hero has Kc Ks in MP in a 1-3 spread game with a single $1 blind. Two players limp to him for $1 each, hero pops it the max to $4, one player in LP coldcalls $4, the blind calls and both limpers call.

5 players see a flop of 4h 7d 8c, with $20 in the pot before the action opens. Three players check to Hero, who bets the max of $3, the LP player folds, and the blinds player squeezes Ah 5s.

He's got a gutshot and one overcard, giving him 7 clean outs. He's getting 23:3 on a call, or about 7.66:1, and he only needs about 6:1 to call. Without knowing it, he makes a good call. UTG looks at Tc Jc, giving him a backdoor straight draw and a gutter -- 5.5 outs or thereabouts. He needs about 7.5:1 and he's getting a better price than that... again, he may not know it, but his call is correct here. The second EP player folds.

Three players see the turn, the Jd, and there is $27 in the pot ($29 in bets less a $2 10% rake). Blind checks, and EP bets $2 on his his pair of jacks (he may sometimes bet $3 and sometimes $1, so $2 sounds like a good average). Hero raises the max, making it $5 to go, and SB frowns but throws $5 in the pot, incidentally getting $34:5, or 9:1 on a call which is far more than he needs. Keep this 9:1 figure in mind for a moment. EP calls as well.

The river is the dreaded 6h, and blinds lights up -- he's made his straight. He bets the max, and now $43 ($47 in bets less a $4 10% rake) is in the pot, EP obliviously calls, giving Hero $46:3 odds on an overcall... an astonishing 15.33:1. Hero calls in disgust, and blinds scoops a mass of dirty white chips having made nary a single mistake post-flop.


Example Hand 2, Wider Spread
Hero again has Kc Ks in MP in a 1-5 game, and again there is a single $1 blind. Two players limp to him for $1 each, hero pops it the max to $6, one player in LP coldcalls $6, the blind calls and both limpers call.

5 players see a flop of 4h 7d 8c, with $30 in the pot before the action opens. Three players check to Hero, who bets the max of $5, the LP player folds, and the blinds player squeezes Ah 5s.

He's got a gutshot and one overcard, giving him 7 clean outs. He's getting 35:5 on a call, or about 7:1, and he only needs about 6:1 to call. Without knowing it, he makes a good call. UTG looks at Tc Jc, giving him a backdoor straight draw and a gutter -- 5.5 outs or thereabouts. He needs about 7.5:1 and he's getting a better price than that ($40:5 or 8:1)... again, he may not know it, but his call is correct here. The second EP player folds.

Three players see the turn, the Jd, and there is $41 in the pot ($45 in bets less a $4 10% rake). Blind checks, and EP bets $4 on his his pair of jacks (he may sometimes bet $5 and less often $1, so $4 sounds like a good average). Hero raises the max, making it $9 to go, and blinds frowns. This is where things change. Blinds is now getting $54:9, or 6:1 on a call. He needs 6.7:1 to call with his 7 outs, however. Compare this to the 9:1 blinds was getting with the same betting in the 1-3 game!!.

Yes, as a pratical matter, he might be able to make this call w/implied odds, bit the point is the large spread has started to show its impact. Hero had the ability to put in a raise that cut down substantially on blinds' odds at the turn in the 1-5 game. If it were 1-6, he'd have an even better shot.


Conclusions
I won't play the second hand out, since I've made my point. So take into account the spread of the betting when you consider which hands to play. Focus on solid drawing hands with a small spread, and more powerful top pair type hands with a larger one. Equally importantly, adjust your standards to the game you're playing in -- if its fishy as hell, and you play well postflop, loosen up a little in position and try to make some intelligent moves against weaker players. The point is: use the spread to your ADVANTAGE.

[augie00]

Wow, great post. Don't have much to add there.

[smoore]

Great post, MisterKing.

What I've noticed from anecdotal experience playing in a 2-5 spread game is that you get paid the most when you make a good draw against a good hand on the flop (like a set that doesn't boat up). Straights are monster for me in these games, flushes also but they are of course more obvious.

[CORed]

One thing to keep in mind for spread limit games is that generally your can raise to more than 2x the big blind (or blind, because a lot of these games are single blind) preflop. This gives you an opportunity to really punish limpers. With no raise preflop, limpers are getting pretty good implied odds, and are not making a huge mistake by seeing the flop for the minimum bet. OTOH, if you can make it $4 in a 1-3, $7 in a 2-5, or $8 in a 2-6, you force the limpers to either fold or call without good implied odds. OTOH, stealing the blind in a single blind spread limit game with a big pocket pair or big suited broadways is not good, so if you are opening, you might want to raise less than the max, if raising the max is likely to get only the blind. If preflop raises are knocking people out, you can play offsuit broadways for a maximum raise. If maximmum preflop raises are getting lots of callers, or getting reraised, you are better off sticking to big pocket pairs and big suited broadways.

Although the smaller blind would seem to call for tighter preflop play, it also means the implied odds when you limp preflop are better. You can play some pretty weak hands in late position with lots of limpers: Suited kings and queens, suited one and two gappers, etc. In general, you want to play tighter in early position, and looser in late position (assuming lots of limpers), than you would in a structured limit game. If there is little raising and lots of limping preflop, you can even play fairly loose (with small pairs, suited aces, and sutied connectors) in early position. However, you may have to fold these if it's max-raised behind you, something you wouldn't do with a single raise behind you in structured games.

Another consideration is that often your pot and implied odds on the flop are worse than they would be in a structured game (This is not true for games like 1-4-4-8, where the max bet increaes on the turn and river). You will usually be
making or facing a maximum bet on the flop, so you would be less inclined to see the turn with gutshots or bottom pairs, or to play marginal hands like middle pairs and overcards. OTOH, the big bet may improve your fold equity for semi-bluffs, if you find yourself in a tight enough game to make semi-bluffing worthwhile.

My experience with spread limit is limited to Colorado 2-5, and I don't play the games a whole lot differently than I play structured limit games; a little loose r preflop in late position, a little tighter preflop in early position, and a little tighter on the flop. Preflop, I will raise to $5 if I'm opening with AA, KK, AKs, AQs, raise to $7 with AK, AQ, KQ, AJ offsuit, and nearly always to $7 with lots of limpers: Stealing the blind sucks, stealing the blind and some limps is fine.

[templar999]

dudes, you guys are awesome. nice work.

[MisterKing]

Thanks for the kind comments, guys. I just sorta sat down and banged that earlier post out, not knowing how it would really come out. CORed has made some excellent points that I think deserve even a little more discussion...

[ QUOTE ]
One thing to keep in mind for spread limit games is that generally your can raise to more than 2x the big blind (or blind, because a lot of these games are single blind) preflop. This gives you an opportunity to really punish limpers. With no raise preflop, limpers are getting pretty good implied odds, and are not making a huge mistake by seeing the flop for the minimum bet. OTOH, if you can make it $4 in a 1-3, $7 in a 2-5, or $8 in a 2-6, you force the limpers to either fold or call without good implied odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a very important concept. It is almost never correct to limp-fold in a standard structured limit game like 2/4 or 3/6, particularly if you are coming in with decent starters. Imagine limping after one limper with A3s in early middle position, one more player limps, and CO raises. You've got to call this bet in 2/4. But in a narrow spread game like 1-3, if CO raises the max, you may not want to call. Your odds, as CORed has pointed out, are worse, and will remain worse as long as you have to call max bets along the way if you're drawing. On the other hand, if it is limped to you in LP and you hold any reasonable holding whatsoever, really consider limping as well if you can't raise. You're getting a REALLY good price on a call, and if you play well you are in a position to take a large pot. So don't be shy about playing super loose on the button and CO in passive spread games.

As a corrolary, you really need to understand the power of the max raise and the max re-raise in these spread games. Coldcalling is a serious mistake in 2/4 and 3/6 games without all but the best cards, but it is an even MORE serious mistake in spread limit games, since a coldcall is equal to 3x (or more) the minimum bet, instead of just 2x. Since spread limit games are often very loose, you may not have many opportunities to force your opponents with situations where they should fold, but if they call you profit. The bloated pots from all the action prevent you from making this happen much of the time, as I demonstrated in my first post. Pre-flop is an exception, however, and if you can face the field with a max-bet coldcall with a good starter, you should. You face your opponents with a lose-lose situation when you make this bet.


[ QUOTE ]
OTOH, stealing the blind in a single blind spread limit game with a big pocket pair or big suited broadways is not good, so if you are opening, you might want to raise less than the max, if raising the max is likely to get only the blind.

[/ QUOTE ]

Definitely. Hands like AA have an expectation of over 3 big bets according to the chart in Ed Miller's SSH, and I think that sounds about right. My PT database (~100K hands) has AA at 3.21BB/hand. As a result, stealing only a single blind is a theoretical disaster with big pairs. You may want to induce action by raising less than the max if it is folded to you in LP and you wake up with a monster. Do not consider limping, however, since you effectively give infinite odds to the blinds to catch a perfect flop -- make them pay a little while you're ahead, and then find ways to extract EV postflop if you're still on top.


[ QUOTE ]
If preflop raises are knocking people out, you can play offsuit broadways for a maximum raise. If maximmum preflop raises are getting lots of callers, or getting reraised, you are better off sticking to big pocket pairs and big suited broadways.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is about the same kind of idea as the two starting hand charts in Ed Miller's SSH, with some modification to reflect the nature of the spread limit game. In Looser, more aggressive games you will NEED hands that play well multiway, and that means s00ted or paired. So what do you do with AJo in early position in a game where you will be called in 4 or more spots with a max raise? I'm a little torn here, but I think folding wouldn't be horrible. You are out of position and will not be able to protect your top pair hand (if you flop it) on later streets, meaning you'll be exposed to "implied collusion" among the others in the hand and will often be drawn out upon by others who had the right odds to continue on all postflop streets. In fact, the thought that hits me as I write this is that you might be more inclined to raise 87s in early position than you would AJo if you can reasonably expect numerous coldcallers. You are building the pot for when you hit, and of course the investment of a single pre-flop raise is nothing compared to what the ultimate pot will be in a super-loose game like this.

Again, consider the spread and your hand's ability to stand up against the field you are likely to face when making pre-flop decisions. Being tied to a multiway pot out of position with TPTK and few ways to improve while several other players are drawing on you is an uncomfortable, and perhaps unprofitable place to be.

[ QUOTE ]
Although the smaller blind would seem to call for tighter preflop play, it also means the implied odds when you limp preflop are better. You can play some pretty weak hands in late position with lots of limpers: Suited kings and queens, suited one and two gappers, etc. In general, you want to play tighter in early position, and looser in late position (assuming lots of limpers), than you would in a structured limit game. If there is little raising and lots of limping preflop, you can even play fairly loose (with small pairs, suited aces, and sutied connectors) in early position. However, you may have to fold these if it's max-raised behind you, something you wouldn't do with a single raise behind you in structured games.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've gone into each of these things a little deeper, but this is dead-on. Position and pot equity rule the day.

[ QUOTE ]
Another consideration is that often your pot and implied odds on the flop are worse than they would be in a structured game (This is not true for games like 1-4-4-8, where the max bet increaes on the turn and river). You will usually be
making or facing a maximum bet on the flop, so you would be less inclined to see the turn with gutshots or bottom pairs, or to play marginal hands like middle pairs and overcards. OTOH, the big bet may improve your fold equity for semi-bluffs, if you find yourself in a tight enough game to make semi-bluffing worthwhile.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the one spot where I feel a little disagreement with COred. I see clearly what he is saying about your implied odds being worse on the flop than they would be in a structured 2/4 or 3/6 game, since calling a small bet on the flop means you might be able to 1.) hit your draw on the turn, and 2.) collect some double-sized bets when you do so. In the spread game, you will collect only single-sized bets on the turn if you hit, since the betting limits do not change.

However, your pot odds are often much easier to figure, and much more favorable, rather than worse as COred says. If you whiff the flop with six or seven outs in a narrow spread game, the lack of a double bet on the turn (as in structured games) means you will often have the ability to draw AGAIN on the turn with correct odds, as long as the pot is not heads-up or three handed. This was illustrated in my two example hands, where the player in the blinds had a gutshot + an overcard.

His point about semi-bluffing sounds great to me. Consider the game you are playing and whether a max bet postflop will clean up some of your outs (e.g. if you hold KT and the board is QJx, will a max raise fold some kings and jacks out so that you can win when you hit your open ender OR if you spike a king or ten?), or increase your equity in other ways. At Excalibur people in the 1-3 and 2-6 games call so much that you probably should just go nuts with all nut four flushes and open-enders on the flop, capping if you can. They're gonna call, you're building a pot for when you hit, and the lynchpin is that you have a massive equity advantage.

[ QUOTE ]
My experience with spread limit is limited to Colorado 2-5, and I don't play the games a whole lot differently than I play structured limit games; a little loose r preflop in late position, a little tighter preflop in early position, and a little tighter on the flop. Preflop, I will raise to $5 if I'm opening with AA, KK, AKs, AQs, raise to $7 with AK, AQ, KQ, AJ offsuit, and nearly always to $7 with lots of limpers: Stealing the blind sucks, stealing the blind and some limps is fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

Great post, COred. Maybe we can convince Sklansky & Co. to do a 2+2 internet magazine article on this subject some time soon??

[CrashPat]

I play a lot of spread limit at various levels. I play in Deadwood, SD and we have a 100 dollar max bet so the games that you can find usually are: 2-10, 2-10-15, 3-12, 5-25, 5-50, and sometimes a 5-100. I also heard about a 1/2 blinds 100 dollar max bet 100 dollar max buy in game going on once that would have been a fun time.

The first 3 games play exactly the same and I think very similar to the 2-6 or 2-5 at Excalibur or in Colorado. I pretty much skimmed over MisterKing's post but I think he left a couple of things out that can be important.

Never play big offsuits in early position. They are not worth the 2 or 3 dollars it costs to get in. It is okay to play 89s in early position but be prepared to dump them when it is maxraised.

If the table is loose and there are a few callers ahead of you when you get a big pair then pump it to the max, if you are the first one in then do something less. In 2-10 I'll often make it 7 to go if I want some action on my big pair. This often backfires when 7 people come in for 7 and there is postflop action.

If you are in a 2 or 3 way pot and there is no action try a small bet. If you have a hand it works well for value, if you do not have a hand it may be suspicious enough the other guy will fold. I've held the nuts in this situation more than once and bet 4 dollars because it isn't a full red chip and almost always I get the callers. If I wanted them to fold I could have bet a red chip and a lot of the time they will dump their high cards or bottom pair, and if they do not it only cost half a bet to find out.

Everything else I can think of has been covered very will by others.