Hold em to 7 Card Stud, maybe you guys can answer this?

[winky51]

For about 6 months I read studied and reread about 15 books on holdem. My holdem game is not bad but I am really struggling. Still + money.

Well one time I was bored and read the 7 card stud section in Doyle Brunsen's book. I don't even think I read all of the section.

I have been playing in tons of stud tournaments and have been constantly winning! The only time I lose is when I lose a huge poit I built to some miracle 2 outer on the river closer to the end of the tournament. I have played about 10 tournaments and only once did I finish below 4th. I have placed about half the tournaments I entered, maybe 60%.

Somethings I have read and my own experiences are:

It is easier to make money and beat people than in holdem, true?

The starting hands I play with seem to be KEY KEY KEY to winning.

You get rivered much less than in holdem which lets you win more.

Pots are larger.

I generally start with...
3 to straight open ended
3 to a flush with 2 cards or less showing
3 to a low flush only if zero are showing.
trips
smalle pair with at least a Q kicker and no over cards showing
big pair with no more than 2 over cards showing

thats it. Late the strategy changes since the average hand is low, middle, high card with 2 suites (I assume).

Playing afterwards is tricky. like how far do you take just JJ, QQ, KK, AA pair?

I picked up Sklansky's 7cs book, gunna read it.

I also got the stud inspector, GREAT SOFTWARE.

[MEbenhoe]

Not quite sure what your question is, but I'd also recommend picking up Winning 7 Card Stud by Ashley Adams and 7 Card Stud by Konstantin Othmer

[patrick dicaprio]

i think you have a lot of it backwards, maybe this is small sample size. you may get "rivered" less often but you dont know in stud whether you do or not most times because you dont see the river. it is harder to make money in stud i think because card reading is more difficult, there is a higher variance once you get past the lower limits, and you often have to raise in stud to knock out the second best hands even if you are the third best hand at the moment.

yor starting hand strategy is questionable as you do not say whether this is in raised pots or not. if it is in raised pots then your requirements are too loose. if it is unraised they are too tight.

as far as late strategy is concerned, stud is notthat difficult late, certainly not nearly as difficult as holdem. in stud the hands are rarely huge dogs so most times the pot is big enough that you have to go the whole way if you have a good hand on fifth street.

Pat

[ParisJim]

Wow! A post that finally got me out of lurker mode.

I totally agree that, at least on Party and their related skins, stud is much easier to beat than hold 'em. I have played a total of 89 stud tourneys and have the following results. 1st 9 2nd 19 3rd 51 Out of money 10 (never lower than 5th) ROI 66.7%. Now I know that a lot of people are going to say that 89 tourneys is not enough to tell. Well I only play 8 hours a week (other important things in my life than staring at a computer screen) and the $653 I have won is enough for me to tell that this beats losing.

The main drawback of stud tourneys -- the lower payback. A 3rd place finish on a 10+1 is only $16. And as you can see, I hit third a lot more than the other places. But even at third I have accumulated a sizable bankroll for my micro limit play (and that was built off of the bonus that Party / Empire gave me for signing up, so far no out of pocket money in the bankroll).

The major advantage of stud is that since fewer people play the game, you see a lot of the same people. Since I have played the tourneys now for a couple of months, it is not uncommon for me to have player notes on at least 5 of my 7 opponents. A tight conservative approach usually gets you to the final 5 and then I just kick into my "tourney mode" in order to get to 3rd or better.

Good thread. I have enjoyed it.

[Al Mirpuri]

Mason Malmuth has written definitively on HE and 7CS and their differences and what it takes to win money at either game. These essays can be found in Poker Essays and Poker Essays II.

[3rdEye]

I had a somewhat similar experience. I'd read all the standard Hold'em material, and was doing fairly well at low limits, but I was itching for some success at multi-table tournaments (and hadn't been doing so hot at NL hold'em). One day, I noticed that a $1 Stud H/L tournament was coming up in a couple of hours, so I decided to read Sklansky's section on the game in Super/System. Believe it or not, I actually ended up winning that tournament--with ZERO previous H/L experience.

I figured that was probably a fluke, so a day or so later I decided to get in a $10 buy-in H/L tournament. This time, I didn't win--but I did finish in second. Overall, since I read the Stud H/L section in Super/System, I've played in 6 H/L tournaments and made the final table 3 out of 6 times.

You may just have a better feel for Stud than you do for hold'em.

[donkeyradish]

Maybe at 7-stud there are more weak opponents on-line than for Holdem?

In Holdem I think there is more scope for weak players to play correctly 'by accident'. There are fewer decisions to be made in a hand.

Whereas in 7 stud a player is given more information to process, and they have to make more decisions due to the number of betting rounds. More rope to hang oneself with?

Just my idea, I don't claim to be an expert.

[CJC]

Hello,


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It is easier to make money and beat people than in holdem, true?


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Like ANY poker game.. Your results ( over long run ) will be based DIRECTLY on how much better you are than your competition.. I have to seriously question your statement. There is no doubt the EXPERT stud player WILL make more money than the expert Hold'Em player.. BUT the EXPERT Hold'Em player will have the advantages of ( usually ) having more games to choose from. Actually probably even the good-very good stud players will enjoy that same advantage. I will tell you one thing though.. Its gonna take you a long time to see just how good you really are.

[ QUOTE ]
The starting hands I play with seem to be KEY KEY KEY to winning.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is true of any poker game.. But I'll let you in on a little secret, which any of the best players here will tell ya.. you can start with rolled aces.. but if you don't know how to play em.. you are still gonna be a losing player.. Most of the money you make is gonna be directly related to your LATER street play..

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You get rivered much less than in holdem which lets you win more

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This might be the most innacurate statement I have ever heard. Or am I misreading it?


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Pots are larger

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Yes there is an extra betting round in Stud.. But it mostly depends on your game selection..

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I generally start with...


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I generally dislike quotes like this.. One thing for sure is that Stud is a VERY complex game.. There are no 'generally's' about starting hand selection. ( although I used to think along those lines too.. ) There are just too many factors that come into play.. Way too many...

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Playing afterwards is tricky. like how far do you take just JJ, QQ, KK, AA pair?


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this is very true.. Like I said above.. alot of money is won and lost on the later streets in stud..

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I picked up Sklansky's 7cs book, gunna read it.


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If you are a newbie.. I would recommend Roy West's book 1st.. Then 7CSFAP.. escpecially the loose section.. Ultimately Study..Live..Learn..and sleep with The Theory of Poker

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I also got the stud inspector, GREAT SOFTWARE.

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What does this software do please..

Take Care,
CJ

[MBTIGUY]

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There are no 'generally's' about starting hand selection. ( although I used to think along those lines too.. ) There are just too many factors that come into play.. Way too many...


[/ QUOTE ]
I've been playing for about 7 months now and have to strongly agree with this as one of the biggest things I have learned. It does seem as though the answer to so many strategy questions is, "It depends."
I'm also finding out that the only way to truly learn all the myriad factors is not just reading about them in great books like the Theory of Poker but by experiencing them in games and reflecting on those experiences.
The number of things I consider at each street is so much greater than when I started it's incredible, yet the more I play, the faster I process all these things.

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If you are a newbie.. I would recommend Roy West's book 1st.

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I can't agree with this strongly enough.

[eh923]

I'm also a Hold Em player who recently decided to start playing Stud as well, so this thread caught my eye. What caught my eye most was...
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You get rivered much less than in holdem which lets you win more.

[/ QUOTE ]
I hope that you mean you face less complete suck outs. If you're saying that you don't get caught by inferior hands as often in Stud, I couldn't disagree with you more. 2nd best hands often have odds to draw. Small 2 pair is barely a favorite over an overpair with live kickers.

Compounding the problem for me is that 7th street is face down. Most of the time, I'll still bet aggressively, but I get raised much more often and have to make crying calls.

Anyway, I think 7 Stud is a great game, and I'm looking forward to learning more!