Is my hand dead?

sfer · #1 07-05-2005, 01:40 PM

Live 15/30 at the Wynn a couple of weeks ago. HU on the river, the board is 33Qxx. I have KK. A player, very tired, possibly slightly drunk, bets, I call. He calls out "Q3" and I muck my hand. My cards slide across the automatic shuffler but do not hit the muck. He says, "Wait, I have Q4," and I grab my cards and turn them face-up. Lots of friendly banter at the table so I highly doubt that this was deliberate. Who gets the pot?

IgorSmiles · #2 07-05-2005, 01:46 PM

You should know better than to muck here, but I think youre still okay. Unless the Wynn has declared the autoshuffler as part of the muck.

ChicagoTroy · #3 07-05-2005, 02:03 PM

In the Chicago area card rooms, they'd say your hand was dead. I've lost one and won two pots this way, and the ruling was uniform.

Jeffage · #4 07-05-2005, 02:15 PM

If your hand can be reconciled, you. If your cards touched the muck at all, him. But in the future...NEVER surrender your cards until you actually SEE a hand that beats yours. This prevents something like this from ever happening.

Jeff

highlife · #5 07-05-2005, 02:34 PM

your hand is definately not dead unless it hits the muck, or the dealer picks it up and places it in the muck.

you win!

Rick Nebiolo · #6 07-05-2005, 02:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Live 15/30 at the Wynn a couple of weeks ago. HU on the river, the board is 33Qxx. I have KK. A player, very tired, possibly slightly drunk, bets, I call. He calls out "Q3" and I muck my hand. My cards slide across the automatic shuffler but do not hit the muck. He says, "Wait, I have Q4," and I grab my cards and turn them face-up. Lots of friendly banter at the table so I highly doubt that this was deliberate. Who gets the pot?

[/ QUOTE ]

In LA about 98% of floor would correctly rule that your hand is live.

Had your hand become intermingled in the muck (so it couldn't be identified and retrieved) it gets dicier. Although your opponent miscalled his hand it's hard to say it was deliberate and most clubs only have rules against deliberate miscalls which in reality are hard to identify (i.e., a player announces a straight holding 8 6 with a board of 5 T 4 3 J - is this a deliberate miscall?).

OTOH, if your opponent had 4J, a confident, thinking floor could rule that the fact there was a miscall combined with the fact there is no calling hand that doesn't beat 4J would be a reasonable basis to award the pot to you in fairness.

All that said, the other posters are correct in that you should never muck based on verbal declaration and double check all winning hands.

~ Rick

MisterKing · #7 07-05-2005, 02:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
My cards slide across the automatic shuffler but do not hit the muck.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know what Robert's Rules say, but my understanding it that if a reasonable observer can pick your exact two cards out on the table, they haven't touched the muck, and there has already been equal action on the river, then they're live and can be tabled BY YOU for a win. OTOH, if you fold and another player asks to see your hand before its in the muck, and the dealer exposes it, you lose regardless of whether YHIG. Likewise, if you verbally declare "you win" to your opponent while still holding the cards, and another player asks to see them, if YOU table them, and they're the best hand, you win.

During the moment between when you release your cards and when they hit the muck the status of the hand (live vs dead) is determined by who asks to see it. That's my impression, anyhow. There was an article in the CardPlayer issue featuring Paul Darden on the cover about this.

Randy_Refeld · #8 07-05-2005, 04:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
He calls out "Q3" and I muck my hand. My cards slide across the automatic shuffler but do not hit the muck. He says, "Wait, I have Q4," and I grab my cards and turn them face-up. Lots of friendly banter at the table so I highly doubt that this was deliberate. Who gets the pot?

[/ QUOTE ]

You have the best hand you win. THere would be a more interesting decision to make if you cards were mucked and unretrievable (you are getting that pot most of the time also).

IgorSmiles · #9 07-06-2005, 09:51 AM

Results? It's gonna be kind of anti-climactic if you tell us you won the pot.

sfer · #10 07-06-2005, 10:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Results? It's gonna be kind of anti-climactic if you tell us you won the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

The dealer awarded me the pot and there wasn't a hassle or anything; the floor wasn't called. As I said, the table was exceptionally friendly. I don't post bad beat stories. I was just curious where people would draw the line.