How's my line here?

JoshNjuice · #1 09-08-2005, 09:41 PM

This is my second orbit of the table and I feel my opponent is a 'normal' player--nothing too unusual--and PT doesn't have any stats on him.

PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 4 folds, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (3 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero raises, BB folds, UTG+1 3-bets, Hero caps, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 folds.

Final Pot: 6.50 BB

Is everything pretty standard here? I'm questioning my play on every street:

PF: Should I have raised?
F: Should I just bet out?
T: Should I check and hope for a raise... I'm obviously concerned about giving free draws here, but I could also induce a bluff from a weaker K or a Q.
(R

If I checked the turn and bet out here, would I get a call?

Thanks for your feedback. I'm hoping to make sure I'm not being overly aggressive with solid hands and losing bets by running 2nd best hands out of the pot too early.

JoshNjuice

milesdyson · #2 09-08-2005, 09:44 PM

raise preflop and lead the flop. since you didn't raise preflop, lead the flop. since you didn't lead the flop, i agree with the check raise but i don't like the cap. i'd rather see you call the 3-bet and lead the turn or simply call the 3-bet and check call the turn and river.

JoshNjuice · #3 09-08-2005, 10:04 PM

Can you tell me why you would raise PF here? I pulled out SSH and KJo is not in the list of raising hands for the SB.

Also, on the flop, I feel like this is a hand I should protect. TPMK is strong, but I'd prefer to play it heads-up, especially since I'm out of position. I figure BB will check to the limper and the limper will bet a wide range of hands, most of them being inferior to mine (many semi-bluffs). A check-raise is almost certain to eliminate the BB.

I agree that capping the flop isn't super.

Why check/call the turn and river? That seems very passive to me and could allow the hands that the limper would semi-bluff the flop with to get a free card if he chooses not to bet the turn.

Thanks for the dialogue. I appreciate your input.

JoshNjuice

NOTE: I'm not criticizing your feedback, I'm scrutinizing it so I can understand it better.

NobodysFreak · #4 09-08-2005, 10:19 PM

Grunching...

With one limper, raise this PF. When the flop hits bet it out. I think villian was hoping to take this down without much improvement and you got locked into a raising war by check-raising him. It looks like he didn't improve on the turn and you were correct to bet out on the turn.

milesdyson · #5 09-08-2005, 10:27 PM

i feel like answering these questions one by one, so i will be using the quote tags liberally to respond.

[ QUOTE ]
Can you tell me why you would raise PF here? I pulled out SSH and KJo is not in the list of raising hands for the SB.

[/ QUOTE ]
you have one limper, and he limped UTG+1, so really you're hand is probably best before the flop. you discuss later on that you would rather play this hand heads up - well why not try to get it heads up now? raise and don't let BB "draw to the flop" for free.

[ QUOTE ]
also, on the flop, I feel like this is a hand I should protect. TPMK is strong, but I'd prefer to play it heads-up, especially since I'm out of position. I figure BB will check to the limper and the limper will bet a wide range of hands, most of them being inferior to mine (many semi-bluffs). A check-raise is almost certain to eliminate the BB.

[/ QUOTE ]
sure it's a strong hand. you have to realize what "protecting a hand" is. it is offering others in the hand improper odds to draw to improve to beat your hand. in this 3 sb pot, your bet will offer the first caller 4:1. since you are almost always ahead here, you are betting for value. if they have a piece of the board (which gives them 3-5 outs), they will be calling improperly. if they have a gutshot they will be calling improperly. even QJ and QT would call improperly here because you have their outs counterfeited with your J. since they will call anyway, your bet is for value (and it protects your hand).

[ QUOTE ]
I agree that capping the flop isn't super.

[/ QUOTE ]
cool.

[ QUOTE ]
Why check/call the turn and river? That seems very passive to me and could allow the hands that the limper would semi-bluff the flop with to get a free card if he chooses not to bet the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]
the "normal player" 3-bet a KQ9 flop in a small pot. this should worry you. check folding the turn after he 3-bets (if you had just called) the flop is actually a legitimate course of action in this hand, because you are going to have to spend 2 BB to showdown. the counter to that is that you definitely have the best hand some of the time, and you have quite a few outs to improve by the river.

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the dialogue. I appreciate your input.

[/ QUOTE ]
you're welcome

[ QUOTE ]
JoshNjuice

[/ QUOTE ]
wtf?

[ QUOTE ]
NOTE: I'm not criticizing your feedback, I'm scrutinizing it so I can understand it better.

[/ QUOTE ]
you should always do this.

numeri · #6 09-08-2005, 10:27 PM

My first thought is: What the hell was UTG+1 playing?

That said, PF is fine. Unless you have specific reads that UTG+1 is really weak and you'd like to clear out the BB, this is fine.

On the flop, I think a bet out is much better. You don't really need to 'protect' here, as your hand is fairly strong. Not only that, how did you know SB was going to bet? If it gets checked through, you're missing a ton of value. I'm not sure about the cap. A 3-bet says at least TP to me. I think I just call the 3-bet and lead the turn.

But then again, obviously the turn says otherwise (about UTG+1), so what do I know? By the way, since you did cap the flop, the turn was a mandatory bet.

teajay · #7 09-08-2005, 10:41 PM

Preflop is fine.

Bet the flop, getting this checked through would suck, especially if there are flush draws. Since you didn't, I think capping this seems a bit over aggro. The rest of the hand would likely play different. But since you capped, I see no reason not to lead again on the flop.

JoshNjuice · #8 09-08-2005, 11:51 PM

This is excellent feedback. I see that not leading the flop is probably -EV. I was pretty confident UTG+1 would bet here, but I can't really say why. I see that going on this 'hunch' would be awful if it was checked through.

I think the most imporant thing is that I simply didn't account for nearly enough variables when I made the decision to "protect my hand" and go for a C/R here. Obviously, there aren't many draws that would be getting odds to correctly call a bet here. I think I'm just not used to playing in pots at this level against this few opponents.

Thanks to all for the great feedback. I know my game needs tweaking and this seemed like a good hand for me to mine for leaks.

JoshNjuice

Eeegah · #9 09-09-2005, 01:46 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop is fine.

Bet the flop, getting this checked through would suck, especially if there are flush draws.

[/ QUOTE ]

Betting out here for value is fine, but it has nothing to do with any possible flush draws.