couple of 2-4 folds. good decisions?

[wiggs73]

I'm normally a SNG / MTT player. I've been working lately on trying to improve my ring game skills, particularly in limit. I feel like both of these folds are pretty standard, but I just want to make sure. I feel a bit lost at times in limit, I definitely have a lot to learn. Here are the hands...

Hand 1:
Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. MP3 posts a blind of $2.
<font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, MP3 (poster) checks, CO calls, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, MP3 calls, CO calls, Hero calls, SB folds.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, Hero folds, BB folds, MP3 folds.

Final Pot: 7.50 BB

Hand 2:
Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (7 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, MP3 calls, CO folds, Button calls.

Turn: (6 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB folds, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, MP3 folds, <font color="#CC3333">Button 3-bets</font>, Hero folds, UTG+1 calls.

River: (13 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, UTG+1 calls.

Final Pot: 17 BB

[aK13]

Terrible flop call in hand 1, even worse fold on the turn. EDIT: Actually, no the flop call is much worse.

Hand 2, the turn fold is ok, I think. I think you should try to check/raise a late position bettor on the flop.

[gvibes]

The flop call in hand 1 is hideous. I like hand 2.

[wiggs73]

Thanks for the response. I agree that the flop call was bad in hand 1. I really would have only felt good about the three of diamonds. I sometimes like to take a turn with an underpair if I can do so for one small bet, hoping to turn trips. Is this a leak?

I certainly would have called one bet on the turn, but I felt that after a bet and raise had been made, I was up against a flush. Does someone care to elaborate as to why this fold was terrible? Was I playing scared by assuming that either the bettor, or more likely the raiser, had a flush?

On hand 2, I like your line of a check-raise much better than leading out. Thanks for the input.

[gvibes]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the response. I agree that the flop call was bad in hand 1. I really would have only felt good about the three of diamonds. I sometimes like to take a turn with an underpair if I can do so for one small bet, hoping to turn trips. Is this a leak?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, and a pretty big one. You're getting 8:1 on a 22:1 shot (actually, more like 33:1, discounting the 3 of clubs). Really bad.

[wiggs73]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the response. I agree that the flop call was bad in hand 1. I really would have only felt good about the three of diamonds. I sometimes like to take a turn with an underpair if I can do so for one small bet, hoping to turn trips. Is this a leak?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, and a pretty big one. You're getting 8:1 on a 22:1 shot (actually, more like 33:1, discounting the 3 of clubs). Really bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you. I feel like an idiot now for not having already done this simple odds computation myself. Anyway... appreciate the responses. Now that we have the flop call on hand 1 and hand 2 as a whole out of the way, I'm still not sure why my fold on the turn in hand 1 is bad. Again, I would have called one bet, but not 2 with the 3-flush hitting on the turn. Maybe this is another leak.

[A_C_Slater]

The Turn fold is bad in hand #1 because you have ten outs to a boat or better. There is 7.5 BB in the pot when it gets to you so you have 7.5/2 or 3.75 to 1 to call. You will boat up at 3.6 to 1 (36/10) with one card to come. You also have good implied odds as you will certainly earn a few more BB's on the river if you improve.

The flop call is "bad" but that has already been explained.

Hand #2 your bottom two pair is vulnerable to counterfeit and straight/flush draws so you should checks and hope a LP players bets so you can raise and face the field with two bets.

[wiggs73]

Those were my thoughts exactly on why the check-raise would have been better on hand 2.

Very useful analysis for why the turn fold was bad on hand 1. Again simple math that I should have already done myself. In retrospect, I played hand 1 VERY poorly, but at least I plugged a couple of leaks as a result. Thanks everyone for the replies.

[mosta]

check raise the flop, or the turn? I don't know about checkraising the turn with the four straight out there.

re the first hand. this is a lesson in fundamentals you won't forget: a set is drawing to beat a flush or straight. (I still remember distinctly the first time I proudly announced that I successfully read someone for a flush and so laid down my three of a kind.)

[wiggs73]

We were talking about check-raising the flop in the 2nd hand. And yes, I'm glad I quickly learned that lesson w/ the first hand. At least I CAN lay down a big hand. Now it's just a matter of knowing when I should. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]