Turn check-raise semi-bluff

AllIn3High · #1 06-09-2005, 07:22 AM

Table just got short-handed after a couple of people left, I'm pretty sure villian has adjusted as well.

Villian (MP) min-raises pre-flop with a large range of hands, suited connecters, small pairs etc. Basicly he always min-raises if he's first to enter the pot.

He's 30/12/3.06 in 402 hands. My notes say he's fairly good (nothing exceptional tho) - aggro, multitables and usually knows when to fold a loosing hand.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter

Hero ($328.37)
BB ($40)
UTG ($198.6)
MP ($102.66)
CO ($0)
Button ($402.41)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $1.
1 fold, MP raises to $4, 1 fold, Hero (poster) calls $3, BB calls $2.

Flop: ($12) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, MP bets $8, Hero calls $8, BB folds.

Turn: ($28) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $10, Hero raises to $30

Like/Hate?

Comments on all streets appreciated.

TreyOfLight · #2 06-09-2005, 08:22 AM

Enh. This would be an unusual way to play a set and he can't think the 7 made you unless you have exactly A7. I'm not sure you get many laydowns from a good player who's ahead here.

On the other hand, he may have second pair or a decent PP and correctly interpret your raise as a bluff, without realizing you also have an A and thereby pay off your better hand for the wrong reason.

fuzzbox · #3 06-09-2005, 08:53 AM

Looks good, but I make it 40 instead of 30. Its harder to call.

What are your plans if he calls and the river blanks/he raises ?

AllIn3High · #4 06-09-2005, 09:02 AM

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Looks good, but I make it 40 instead of 30. Its harder to call.

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I'd never make it $40 with a hand where i want a call so I think that'd look too suspicious.

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What are your plans if he calls and the river blanks/he raises ?

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If he raises he has a set (I'm pretty sure he won't re-raise with AK in that spot) and a raise basicly puts him all-in so I fold as i won't have odds to call.

If he calls and i hit my flush/2 pair I'm obviously value betting the river. Otherwise i check and call up to $30.

michaliv · #5 06-09-2005, 09:16 AM

I think you played it fine here. If he moves in here I think you would have to fold. He would either have a better Ace than you or a set. Either way you would be drawing to no more than 11 outs (9 clubs and 3 7's) which is a 3.1:1 shot. Your pot odds are only 2.1:1. If he calls and you miss the river and he bets, I wouldn't call anything over $30.

AllIn3High · #6 06-09-2005, 09:28 AM

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Enh. This would be an unusual way to play a set and he can't think the 7 made you unless you have exactly A7. I'm not sure you get many laydowns from a good player who's ahead here.

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You think so? This is about as good a slowplaying flop for AJ/A3/JJ/33 as one could hope for. And I'd probably play AK the same way.

But thinking about it, this is probably not the board to try to push someone off TPGK+..

fuzzbox · #7 06-09-2005, 10:12 AM

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Looks good, but I make it 40 instead of 30. Its harder to call.

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I'd never make it $40 with a hand where i want a call so I think that'd look too suspicious.

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Really ? You probably should. The pot is 38 when you are raising - and you only raise to 30. So he has to then call 20 to try to win a 68 pot. You frequently give 3.5-1 odds to somebody in this spot when you have a good hand ? You are also giving them implied odds if you do that.

A pot sized raise would be call the 10 making 48 and 48 more = 58 to play.

If you have a set here, then you only raise to 30 ? He calls and a club comes off ... how much do you pay off ?

I think ur c/r has no bite to it, and since you want some fold equity .....

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What are your plans if he calls and the river blanks/he raises ?

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If he raises he has a set (I'm pretty sure he won't re-raise with AK in that spot) and a raise basicly puts him all-in so I fold as i won't have odds to call.

If he calls and i hit my flush/2 pair I'm obviously value betting the river. Otherwise i check and call up to $30.

[/ QUOTE ]

So if he calls, and it blanks you just give up ?
If thats the case - then you really need to bet some more to increase your fold equity. Otherwise, just call his bet which gives you 3.8-1 to hit your card (which is pretty good pot odds).

AllIn3High · #8 06-09-2005, 01:01 PM

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Looks good, but I make it 40 instead of 30. Its harder to call.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd never make it $40 with a hand where i want a call so I think that'd look too suspicious.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really ? You probably should. The pot is 38 when you are raising - and you only raise to 30. So he has to then call 20 to try to win a 68 pot. You frequently give 3.5-1 odds to somebody in this spot when you have a good hand ? You are also giving them implied odds if you do that.

A pot sized raise would be call the 10 making 48 and 48 more = 58 to play.

If you have a set here, then you only raise to 30 ? He calls and a club comes off ... how much do you pay off ?

I think ur c/r has no bite to it, and since you want some fold equity .....

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I didn't even consider this while playing, it's because his turn-bet was so weak, a raise to 3x his bet is usually about right. I think i need to pay more attention to this in the future.

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What are your plans if he calls and the river blanks/he raises ?

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If he raises he has a set (I'm pretty sure he won't re-raise with AK in that spot) and a raise basicly puts him all-in so I fold as i won't have odds to call.

If he calls and i hit my flush/2 pair I'm obviously value betting the river. Otherwise i check and call up to $30.

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So if he calls, and it blanks you just give up ?
If thats the case - then you really need to bet some more to increase your fold equity. Otherwise, just call his bet which gives you 3.8-1 to hit your card (which is pretty good pot odds).

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Well I don't exatcly intend to give up but i get your point.

Thanks for the input.

Results: TreyOfLight got it...

Turn: ($28) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $10, Hero raises to $30, MP calls $20.

River: ($88) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, MP checks.

Final Pot: $88

Hero has Ac 8c (three of a kind, aces).
MP has Qc Qh (two pair, aces and queens).
Outcome: Hero wins $88.

-Skeme- · #9 06-09-2005, 01:58 PM

Raise more or don't raise. A9 or some cheese that beats you will call here, and if you miss your [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] you are screwed. From the way he was betting, he seems scared. He could have a crappy Ace or something afraid of the Ace on board. I think really the only good thing about your small raise is that a stubborn donk with Jacks or something stays in. And even then it's not a good situation, if you miss your club you'll probably check on the river and he could put in a good sized bet leaving you wondering wtf just happened. I don't like building pots, OOP, with weakish hands on just a draw. You aren't getting a fold here that often, so there's not really a point in doing it. I really hate check-raising with weak hands when people bet weak, it always seems like they'll realize you are doing this BECAUSE they bet weak. I hate it even more when you check-raise weak. Make it more or don't bother.

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I'd never make it $40 with a hand where i want a call so I think that'd look too suspicious.

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And what happens when you do that with your good hands? They call you down because your raise is so small. Do you really think some donk will say, "Wait a minute, he check-raises small amounts on the turn with monsters!" and fold a better hand? Doubtful.

AllIn3High · #10 06-09-2005, 02:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Raise more or don't raise. A9 or some cheese that beats you will call here, and if you miss your [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] you are screwed. From the way he was betting, he seems scared. He could have a crappy Ace or something afraid of the Ace on board. I think really the only good thing about your small raise is that a stubborn donk with Jacks or something stays in. And even then it's not a good situation, if you miss your club you'll probably check on the river and he could put in a good sized bet leaving you wondering wtf just happened. I don't like building pots, OOP, with weakish hands on just a draw. You aren't getting a fold here that often, so there's not really a point in doing it. I really hate check-raising with weak hands when people bet weak, it always seems like they'll realize you are doing this BECAUSE they bet weak. I hate it even more when you check-raise weak. Make it more or don't bother.

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I'd never make it $40 with a hand where i want a call so I think that'd look too suspicious.

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And what happens when you do that with your good hands? They call you down because your raise is so small. Do you really think some donk will say, "Wait a minute, he check-raises small amounts on the turn with monsters!" and fold a better hand? Doubtful.

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Very true, I posted the hand because I didn't really like the way I played it. What I meant by "I'd never make it $40 with a hand where i want a call" is that i usually raise to 3x the amount bet. If he had bet something proper in relation to the pot that would have been about right, but as has been pointed out it was pretty bad here.