I don't think I've been playing these correctly

QTip · #1 07-07-2005, 09:45 AM

A couple of situations.

Let's say you hold Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

You limp UTG+1, folded to the CO who limps, sb folds, bb checks.

Flop: T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

BB checks, you bet, CO calls, bb folds

Turn: 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

you bet, co calls

Turn 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

You ? - how many are betting? Does a read matter that much to you?

Now

Change your hand to the A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Same action except you raise PF, CO cold calls, BB calls and there are now 3 more sb in the pot.

Same cards and action

on the river, you ?

Let's say you checks and CO bets. How many are calling? Does a read matter that much to you?

I think I'm playing scenario 1 correctly most the time. However, I think I'm check/folding the river WAY too often in the 2nd scenario.

jskills · #2 07-07-2005, 09:50 AM

In hand #1, I'm not sure I even bet the turn. Do you no matter what? I assume you meant the 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] fell on the river? I see myself check / folding a river like that, I have nothing expect Queen high. Weak / tight?

The second scenario plays out the same way for me. And yes, I think I check fold on the river as well. Someone with a lousy pair of tens is going to beat you. Do you advocate check calling?

Colonel Kataffy · #3 07-07-2005, 10:02 AM

[ QUOTE ]

In hand #1, I'm not sure I even bet the turn. Do you no matter what? I assume you meant the 2 fell on the river? I see myself check / folding a river like that, I have nothing expect Queen high. Weak / tight?

The second scenario plays out the same way for me. And yes, I think I check fold on the river as well. Someone with a lousy pair of tens is going to beat you. Do you advocate check calling?

[/ QUOTE ]

In the first scenario, I would think the turn would be a text book semi-bluff.

In the second, I think bet/folding would be better than check/calling. Though, check/folding might be best.

McGahee · #4 07-07-2005, 10:05 AM

I would check the turn in Hand #1 as well and check/fold river.

Hand #2 - I hate A high OOP on the river. I really don't like any of my options.

SeaEagle · #5 07-07-2005, 10:07 AM

In the first hand, I'm betting most of the time. Last fall, this was a specific area that I worked on (river bluffing with no-showdown-value hands). There were some psychological barriers I had to overcome, since the bluff is unsuccessful a lot (actually, most) of the time, but it's still a highly profitable play if used correctly. This appears to be an ideal spot and I think you're folding out a better hand way more than the 20% you need.

In the second hand, check/call is my preferred plan. With such a coordinated hand, you're going to get bluffed at with a busted draw quite often. PFA reads are important here.

SeaEagle · #6 07-07-2005, 10:11 AM

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In the second, I think bet/folding would be better than check/calling. Though, check/folding might be best.

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I really don't like bet/folding here. What worse hand is calling you? What better hand are you folding out? Check/folding is OK, although with such a coordinated board and no aggression by villian, I think you're ahead a lot of the time.

Colonel Kataffy · #7 07-07-2005, 10:25 AM

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I really don't like bet/folding here. What worse hand is calling you? What better hand are you folding out? Check/folding is OK, although with such a coordinated board and no aggression by villian, I think you're ahead a lot of the time.

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Its not so much that a worse hand is going to call, its that a worse hand is going to bet if you check. And some broken draws that are ahead of you may fold. I think against most opponents check/folding is best, but if he would try to pick up the pot with a bet, but fold a weak hand, then I don't think checking is right.

SeaEagle · #8 07-07-2005, 10:44 AM

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Its not so much that a worse hand is going to call, its that a worse hand is going to bet if you check.

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This is why you need to check/call here a lot. Check/calling is never worse than bet/folding, assuming no worse hands are calling you. But in many cases, check/calling saves you a bet because there's a lot of better hands that will call a bet but are just going to check behind you to the showdown.

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And some broken draws that are ahead of you may fold.

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I could see bet/folding if you had some fold equity, but I'm having a hard time seeing it. What broken draws are ahead of you?

thejameser · #9 07-07-2005, 10:58 AM

reads would help me, especially on #2. in #1 i would bet out the flop, i could think about checking the flop with the intention of raising for value. if it gets checked through i am drawing for free but missing bets if i hit my big draw. i check/call that turn and fold weakly on the river unless i have a read on CO that would lead me to believe in the rare instance that Q high is good. #2 i bet, bet, check/call DEPENDING ON OPPONENT. i can't give a solid answer withouth stats. if i revert to game theory in #2 i take the bet, bet, check/call line. i guess, subject to change when my stupid answers are ripped apart. [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

Colonel Kataffy · #10 07-07-2005, 10:59 AM

When I said broken draws, I was thinking along the lines of overcards or flush draw witha small pair. Your right though, thats not the case here.

Bet/folding in order to use fold equity is something i've been playing around with though in my mind. Do you think this could be a reasonable play if you thought there was a good chance your opponet had two overs (and you had two smaller cards like a JT or 9T). Say he raised pre flop and the board is all small cards?