flush draw... too aggressive?

lane mcbride · #1 12-24-2005, 03:32 PM

I think I played this hand fine, but I usually play a bit aggressive so I'm curious to hear other people's views.
specifically:
do you reraise third or just flat call?
do you 3 bet fourth?
5th-7th anything different?

thanks in advance:

7 Card Stud High ($1/$2), Ante $0.10, Bring-In $0.50 (converter)

3rd Street - (0.80 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls___folds
Seat 2: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___raises___calls
Seat 3: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 4: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 6: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___brings-in___folds
Seat 7: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 8: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls___folds

4th Street - (6.30 SB)

Seat 2: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___raises___raises
Hero: 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets___raises___calls

5th Street - (7.15 BB)

Seat 2: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets

6th Street - (9.15 BB)

Seat 2: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets

River - (11.15 BB)

Seat 2: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] xx___calls
Hero: 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets

Total pot: (13.15 BB)

#2 12-24-2005, 04:16 PM

Yeah too aggressive on third, you are trying to get it heads up with ace high against a probable pair of kings. If you have good control on an opponent and can make him toss the kings it is fine, but I much prefer to call and let a whole load more peoplein with my flush draw. Once you have got i heads up, thats fine, I would play it pretty aggressively, but third I would usually flat call.

Jacob_Gilliam · #3 12-24-2005, 05:20 PM

Yeah, this is 1-2. With flush draws, I like to let lots of people come in, cause they'll pay you off when you hit.

TheSalche · #4 12-24-2005, 06:30 PM

3rd: Call the raise, I'd like a reraise if there were players between you and the king, but you actually just got the jack and queen to fold, which is not ideal, you may want one of them to see 4th with you.

4th: 3-bet here is a little aggressive. He's acting like he has AAK, KKK or K8K8, so I'm inclined to just call the raise.

5th: I think if you had of bet/called on 4th, you could go for a check/raise here with the made flush to get some more money out of him.

lane mcbride · #5 12-26-2005, 04:56 PM

I wanted the jack and the queen to fold.

my thoughts at the time were that the dead money in the pot + the improved chance of winning without making our flush (spiking an ace or two pair) were worth trying to knock the other players out since they had already put money in the pot

any other thoughts? anyone like the raise?

CJC · #6 12-26-2005, 05:10 PM

Hi,

In a $1-2 game with that ante-structure you were too aggressive on 3rd..

4th.. again too aggressive with the re-raise.. although since you re-raised third it really wasn't that bad..

The rest is standard though, although I might have tried a check-raise on 5th since he was so proud of his holding on 4th..

CJ

lane mcbride · #7 12-26-2005, 06:38 PM

on third, I'm not sure what I think... I realize the ante is small, and that's why I think the decision is close... for what it's worth, my a45 was about 50/50 vs. split kings (not to mention I may be able to get him to lay down his kings because of my aggression).

however, on fourth, I think I want to get as many bets in as possible for a few reasons:

1.) his likely holdings are kings, kings up, or concealed aces. if he has kings up, I'm still about a coin flip to win the pot, if he has just kings, I'm 65% or so to win the pot, if he has aces, I'm about 58% to win the pot. So, I think that a raise most certainly has value... in fact, very good value. Now besides just the value, there are some hidden benefits. 3 specific benefits in my mind

i.) deception. clearly he is not going to put me on a flush, and therefore, I will get paid off even with a three flush showing (as was the case).
ii.) it ties him to a pot he isn't a favorite to win
iii.) my aggression may buy me a free card later on (when I may not be a favorite to win the hand).

and as a side note, I may be able to scare him away if I make an open pair since he may fear I have aces up.

Andy B · #8 12-26-2005, 07:08 PM

Third street, I don't hate the raise, but generally speaking, I would rather play a three-flush in a four-way pot for one bet than heads-up for two. If you're in a tough game, you have to occasionally make it two bets with a three-flush so as not to become too readable. In a $1/2 game, deception is usually wasted. I'd just call and keep the other guys in.

Having gotten it heads-up, whether or not to jam depends in part on your estimation of your opponent. If he has Kings only, you're a solid favorite. If he has two pair, you're about even. If he has a set, you're a dog. If you really think he's forcing the action with two Kings after you've represented Aces on third, go ahead in jam. Unless I thought the guy was an idiot, I'd just call the raise and see what came. Once you hit your flush, just keep betting until he gives you a reason not to.

blumpkin22 · #9 12-27-2005, 03:16 PM

Lane -

You played this hand very well. Very few players understand the importance of getting the pot heads up, even with the low ante. With the live flush cards and live ace, you have a very strong hand. But for some of the reasons you mentioned (winning with small two pair, deception, etc.) I love the raise on third. Nice hand.