Player knows it all & causes a big scene

[juanez]

This was a good of example of a player "knowing" the rules and insisting they be followed to the absolute end.

There's this woman who is a fairly regular player - I'll call her "The Lady". She's usually OK, but kind of condescending to most folks. She isn't well liked to put it nicely.

This particular hand (a hand that The Lady wasn't even involved with - she folded preflop) Player A bets the river and Player B calls the bet. Player A shows his hand. Player B sees Player A's cards, grunts and then places his cards face down on the felt, thus conceding defeat. Player A then asks the dealer (me) to see Player B's cards.

Well, The Lady says "He [Player A] can't see those cards - he [Player B] mucked them". Player A says "He called my bet, so I can see them." I tell The Lady "He's right, he has the right to see his cards" and Player B turns his cards over without any protest. No big whoop, no huge surprises were revealed.

The Lady freaks and yells for the floor. The floor person agrees with me that he has the right to see the other player’s cards. The Lady is disgusted and says something like "You don't know what you’re talking about..." or whatever.

I deal the next hand. Situation over, right? Wrong.

The Lady leaves the poker room and tells the MOD that she wants to speak with the CO Div. of Gaming.

Gaming shows up. The situation is explained, Colorado Gaming Regulations are reviewed as well as Roberts Rules. We discuss for a few minutes. Well, they discussed really - I was just there for the most part, agreeing with my floor person.

Gaming agrees with The Lady!!! [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img] We're all shocked. The Lady again says something to the effect of "You don't know what you're doing here..." and struts off.

Here's what CO Gaming Regulations - Rules for Poker (aka Rule 10) says regarding the showdown:
"Any player who has called all bets in a hand may request to see, face up, any other hand that has called all bets." and
"A player may choose to discard a hand without showing it unless another player who called all bets has requested to see the hand."

The "called all bets" is what made the difference to Gaming. The Gaming goon's rationale for agreeing with the Lady was that Player A was the "Bettor". Player B was "Caller". So Player B called Player A's bet and therefore has the right to see his cards. Since Player A was the bettor, he had no right to see Player B's cards because Player A didn't CALL any bets.

The floor person and I were amazed. The poker room manager complained to the Grand Poobah at Gaming and got them to have a meeting with him regarding the ruling.

The Grand Poobah indicated that without question, the rule should be interpreted to mean that anyone who went all the way to the showdown could see any other player's cards.

All of this because some "Lady" had to show the floor that she "knew the rules". [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img] And she wasn't even in the hand to begin with.

FYI, here's what Robert's Rules says:

The Showdown:
5. Any player who has been dealt in may request to see any hand that has been called, even if the opponent's hand or the winning hand has been mucked. However, this is a privilege that may be revoked if abused. If a player other than the pot winner asks to see a hand that has been folded, that hand is dead. If the winning player asks to see a losing player's hand, both hands are live, and the best hand wins.

[tylerdurden]

IF the rule really is intended to prevent collusion, then only the person calling the bets (not the person making them) should need to see the mucked cards. Think about it.

[Dominic]

when i first started playing poker, I thought anyone had the right to see the cards, too. Well, one hand I bet the river, get one caller, show my hand, and the guy just nods.

He begins to push his cards - facedown - towards the dealer. Well, I'm a smart guy so I demand to see what hand I so superbly beat with my incredible poker skills.

The dealer flips up his cards and notices that the other player actually had the better hand! He was drawing to a flush and didn't realize he had made a straight on the end.

Naturally, the dealer gave the pot to the winning hand. As he should. Cards speak.

I never asked to see someone's cards again! If someone wants to muck, let him!

[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[smoore]

I love your posts, juanez.

What a stupid rule monkey that gaming goon was.

So was there any citation issued or any penalty for the gilpin for enforcing the "wrong" thing, or was this just a non-issue from the gate?

[juanez]

I love your posts, juanez.

What a stupid rule monkey that gaming goon was.

So was there any citation issued or any penalty for the gilpin for enforcing the "wrong" thing, or was this just a non-issue from the gate?

Thanks man - been up here lately?

Nah, no penalty or fine or anything like that. The powers that be at the poker room just wanted to be sure that we were following the rules correctly so we are consistent.

[juanez]

IF the rule really is intended to prevent collusion, then only the person calling the bets (not the person making them) should need to see the mucked cards. Think about it.

I can see why you might think that.

Maybe a guy flops a boat, but has suspicions that these two other clowns are trying to work the table over. The guy calls the turn raise and re-raises by the two clowns. On the river the guy decides to bet out since he has the nuts. The guy then loses his right to see a hand that goes to showdown? I don't think that's fair since he still thinks collusion is taking place.

And let it be known - I NEVER ask to see anyones hand when I play myself....I think it's pretty cheesy unless you truly think collusion is happening.

[juanez]

Well, I'm a smart guy so I demand to see what hand I so superbly beat with my incredible poker skills.

The dealer flips up his cards and notices that the other player actually had the better hand! He was drawing to a flush and didn't realize he had made a straight on the end.

Naturally, the dealer gave the pot to the winning hand. As he should. Cards speak.

I never asked to see someone's cards again! If someone wants to muck, let him!


Good advice. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[tylerdurden]

[ QUOTE ]
I can see why you might think that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Come on... if you think guys are really cheating, call em down and get their cards. Simple. You can't complain about abuse of this rule and then turn around and say that the aggressor should be able to see the *caller's* mucked cards. Talk about abuse!

[Eihli]

Chip dumping in a tourney.

[Luv2DriveTT]

I recommend you read this article by Bob Ciaffone, which is the first of a 2 part series on the showdown... or more specifically the IWTSTH rule (I Want To See That Hand). Bob's article discusses exactly what you just described.

LINK

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]