dunno about this one...

[blumpkin22]

Both villains are fairly mediocre players, but no detailed reads on either.

7 Card Stud High ($10/$20), Ante $1, Bring-In $3 (hand converter)

3rd Street - (0.80 SB)

Hero: J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___brings-in___calls
Seat 2: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 3: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 4: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___completes
Seat 5: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 7: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds

4th Street - (3.80 SB)

Hero: J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 4: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 5: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls

5th Street - (3.40 BB)

Hero: J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___raises___calls
Seat 4: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets___raises
Seat 5: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls___calls

6th Street - (12.40 BB)

Hero: J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 4: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets___calls

River - (18.40 BB)

Hero: J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks
Seat 4: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] xx___checks
Seat 5: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx___checks

Total pot: 18.40 BB

[Stork]

I think 6th street is pretty interesting... Seat 4's check is very suspect, and Seat 5 seems likely to have queens up. I don't think I would've raised there, but I don't play that high. Also it looks like your raise got you a free showdown which was good to take in that spot.

[Andy B]

I'm not crazy about the raise on sixth. When a guy three-bets fifth and then checks sixth, it sure looks suspcious. Also, the guy with the diamonds on board called three bets on fifth and decided to bet into you on sixth. You should be in third place here, really. Other than that, I think you played it fine.

[blumpkin22]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not crazy about the raise on sixth. When a guy three-bets fifth and then checks sixth, it sure looks suspcious. Also, the guy with the diamonds on board called three bets on fifth and decided to bet into you on sixth. You should be in third place here, really. Other than that, I think you played it fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

So are you calling sixth and folding the river UI? Do you really believe that Seat 5 has two diamonds or a Queen in the hole?

Seat 4's check on sixth is more confusing than it is suspicious. It does seem possible that he made Kings up with (KT)T9K on fifth street and checked on sixth because he was scared of Seat 5's board; after all, he doesn't know about my diamond collection that makes Seat 4 less likely to have a flush. On the other hand, his 3-bet on fifth and then check on sixth also looks like he might have tried to get it heads up with something just one pair with an isolation 3-bet.

One more thing to think about is the following. If you were a thinking a player, what hand would you put me on? I bring it in, call a completion, then start jamming it on fifth. Smells like rolled up 2s or less likely but possibly hidden trips like 33 or JJ the hole. Consequently, while these players are not thinking players, they have to think I may have a monster like trips and so it's a little more likely that they have good draws rather than decent made hands. Something like two clubs in the hole for Seat 4 (likely including the K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]) and a gutshot plus flush draw for Seat 5.

I'm certainly not liking my hand very much after getting 3-bet on fifth street. But I really don't like simply turning into a calling station with a weak two pair in this game. If there's a chance to win the pot by putting in an extra bet or two, it needs to be done. I think the majority of players lose a lot of money by raising only when they think they are quite sure they are ahead and calling down when they know they are beat. If you think you are drawing slim to dead, fold! If you think there is a decent chance your hand is best, figure out how to protect it and win the pot!

[jon_1van]

I agree that the 3-bet on 5th looked like an attempt to get it heads up.

But I don't think your raise on 6th is likely to get it heads up. And I don't want to reopen the action to the Qd. I don't think there's enough value in the raise (if you are ahead) to risk putting 2 more BB in the pot if you are behind trips or a higher 2 pair.

[Andy B]

[ QUOTE ]
So are you calling sixth and folding the river UI?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I call on the river. I said you should be beaten. I didn't say you are beaten.

[ QUOTE ]
Do you really believe that Seat 5 has two diamonds or a Queen in the hole?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why can't he? He's betting something, isn't he?

Perhaps they'll put you on a monster, but they'll pay you off anyway, right?

[blumpkin22]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Do you really believe that Seat 5 has two diamonds or a Queen in the hole?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why can't he? He's betting something, isn't he?


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure what he's betting. A common characteristic for bad players is that when checked to they will often bet if their board is scary: "Oh, he thinks I have the flush. If I bet, he will think I have the flush and fold." He could have diamonds in the hole, but more than likely he doesn't; he probably has one diamond in the hole. And there's definitely no reason he should have a Queen unless he randomly has (Q6)6. Also I don't think he would bet out Queens up after all the aggression on fifth.

He either has the flush or is semibluffing or bluffing. If he doesn't have it and there's any chance the other guy will fold rather than call two cold, I want him out.

As was mentioned by a different poster, the raise on 6th with my position is likely to give a free showdown, even if one of them makes, say, a flush on the river. And if they donk-bet the river, I think I could possibly even find a fold if I don't improve.

[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps they'll put you on a monster, but they'll pay you off anyway, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure what you mean here.

[blumpkin22]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree that the 3-bet on 5th looked like an attempt to get it heads up.

But I don't think your raise on 6th is likely to get it heads up. And I don't want to reopen the action to the Qd. I don't think there's enough value in the raise (if you are ahead) to risk putting 2 more BB in the pot if you are behind trips or a higher 2 pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a good point.

[Andy B]

You asked what I would put you on if I were in opponents' shoes. I didn't elaborate, but yeah, a set seems fairly likely, although something like pocket Aces or the three-flush turned to two pair are possibilities. Even if they somehow conclude that you have trips, they'll pay you off with Kings-up and Queens-up, right?

[blumpkin22]

[ QUOTE ]
Even if they somehow conclude that you have trips, they'll pay you off with Kings-up and Queens-up, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Most likely, yes. But if someone is faced with two bets cold on sixth street, from someone who just caught a 3rd diamond up and from someone who also raised fifth street...he's actually not getting the odds to call if he thinks he only has four outs. (He might have a gutshot also, but has to think I have some Jacks...blahblah.)

I'm still don't think raising is necessarily correct, but I'd like to generate some discussion about it.

If 6th is checked to you, easy bet? What if one of them raises your bet?