Pre flop equity situation

[bambi]

ok preflop our hands have pot equity and the rule of thumb is if you are a favourite than pump the pot as much as you can, is there any hands that we will play, that doesnt have the correct odds preflop but we play because our implied odds compensate for this? i am interested in limit holdem.

Like if the pot is capped to you on the button and you have 56s, and you no you will be getting 9/1 on your 4 sb bets, should you call, or if its three cold and you no all will call should you cap.

As if you are willing to call four cold, then shouldnt you be able to raise as it will be exactly the same odds on your money.

Or is a hand like 56s more then a 9/1 dog preflop, but we play it as implied odds makes it +EV

[TaintedRogue]

To get 9:1 on a call with 65s when it's been capped, you would have to have 9 opponents. Go to www.twodimes.net and punch in 9 hands against 65s and see how much pot equity it has.

I did this awhile back, and 65s has as much equity as AKs, depending on the other players hands and how the suits are distributed.
It would be a very high variance play, but I would be in for the flop, IF: I am guaranteed a lot of action when I hit the flop.

[Mr. Curious]

Looks like you are trying to justify super LAG limit play in a crazy game.

The whole idea behind speculative (implied odds) hands is that you want to see the flop for as cheap as possible.

Let's say you call in your scenario and the flop comes up 662. Now what do you do? You are stuck paying off anyone holding 22 and anyone holding a 6 with a better kicker. Even if the board ends up being 662 5 7, you are still paying off someone holding 67 or 77!

The reason that the game you described is called "juicy" is that the FISH will call 3 bets cold on the button with 65s, not you.

If you haven't read Ed Miller's Small Stakes Hold'em, you should definitely pick up a copy. It is worth its weight in gold.

[bambi]

i posted about this in the small stakes holdem section, maybe this will help with what i am trying to ask

link

[Mr. Curious]

There is some interesting advice in there.

Here's a random mix of hands that might raise & 3-bet in early position against 65s:

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1303312
pokenum -h as ks - qh qc - 4h 4d - 9s 9c - 2c 3c - kd td - ah 5h - 7s 6s
Holdem Hi: 376992 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
As Ks 38027 10.09 334674 88.77 4291 1.14 0.106
Qc Qh 77690 20.61 299007 79.31 295 0.08 0.206
4d 4h 36276 9.62 340421 90.30 295 0.08 0.096
9s 9c 50662 13.44 326035 86.48 295 0.08 0.134
3c 2c 43929 11.65 332768 88.27 295 0.08 0.117
Kd Td 52091 13.82 322709 85.60 2192 0.58 0.141
Ah 5h 40409 10.72 334189 88.65 2394 0.64 0.110
7s 6s 33617 8.92 343080 91.00 295 0.08 0.089

Against two reasonable EP preflop raising hands, 76s here only has about 9% equity in this pot. 44 is only slightly better (9.6%), so it should be dumped too. 99 does have an edge (14%) and is worthy of a cap.

Switching the 76 to JT, the numbers are a bit different.

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1303324
pokenum -h ac kc - qh qc - 4h 4d - 9s 9c - 2c 3c - kd td - ah 5h - ts js
Holdem Hi: 376992 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ac Kc 37255 9.88 334846 88.82 4891 1.30 0.105
Qc Qh 75955 20.15 300633 79.75 404 0.11 0.202
4d 4h 40100 10.64 336488 89.26 404 0.11 0.107
9s 9c 55170 14.63 321418 85.26 404 0.11 0.146
3c 2c 25120 6.66 351468 93.23 404 0.11 0.067
Kd Td 41596 11.03 330809 87.75 4587 1.22 0.116
Ah 5h 41608 11.04 332317 88.15 3067 0.81 0.114
Js Ts 52938 14.04 321291 85.22 2763 0.73 0.144

44 still should not be played, but both JT and 99 still have decent equity and capping with them is the right thing to do.

[bambi]

Have a look at the preflop equity of AKs, very similar to 56s and behind TJs, i find that interesting.